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Author Topic: Extended Joker-choker?  (Read 1661 times)

Patrick

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Extended Joker-choker?
« on: September 27, 2020, 12:54:23 PM »

The other day my friend Alex visited me and he brought his 360 ° camera so I took the opportunity to record some top tricks and here are the results.

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ta0

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 03:41:24 PM »

Nice!
So, if I understand correctly, you are not using a button and sometimes are holding with your right hand  (RH)  and feeding the string on you left hand and sometimes you are holding with your left hand (LH) and feeding on your right hand. I would say it's new.  8)
It's related to a trick Jon Gates does: I believe he holds the string on both hands and lets the top land close to one hand or the other.
I think you can name the trick, specially if you succeed switching in consecutive pops several times.
I like that you do crossed arm catches and you seem to correctly switch hands when necessary.

Have you thought about entering the World Contest?  ;)
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Texture

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2020, 03:56:16 PM »

Whoa, that is an amazing camera! Awesome footage of your trick. I agree with ta0, you should enter int the World Spintop Contest!
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Neff

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2020, 11:30:11 AM »

That shot of the target shoot at the end is so sick!  I have questions about how the 3D camera editing works, but I don't even know how to ask the questions, lol  :o

Below are a couple of examples of what Sir Gates does. Similar, but Patrick's crosses make it look especially complex.






« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 11:33:44 AM by Neff »
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ta0

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2020, 12:12:29 PM »

Thanks for that video of Jon. I hadn't seen one so clear. Yeah, same trick minus crosses.
I cannot recall what name he gave them.
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Patrick

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2020, 03:32:19 PM »

Nice!
So, if I understand correctly, you are not using a button and sometimes are holding with your right hand  (RH)  and feeding the string on you left hand and sometimes you are holding with your left hand (LH) and feeding on your right hand. I would say it's new.  8)
It's related to a trick Jon Gates does: I believe he holds the string on both hands and lets the top land close to one hand or the other.
I think you can name the trick, specially if you succeed switching in consecutive pops several times.
I like that you do crossed arm catches and you seem to correctly switch hands when necessary.

Have you thought about entering the World Contest?  ;)

Yes, you are correct, in fact in the video I show a trick that combines a Joker-choker (trapeze + vertical lasso) plus a "left handed joker-choker" (that's like chiral versión of the joker-choker). I'm thinking on naming these 4 tricks properly, but for now (for easier explanation) lets call them:
1.left handed trapeze
2.left handed vertical lasso
3.left handed joker-choker
4.Joker-choker + left handed joker-choker

In order to dissipate doubts I'm making a video where I show the 4 tricks with the actual proposed names for each one

About the contest i been thinking in participate in the ladder division, but I don't know if i will be capable of record a video before the day of the contest.

 
That shot of the target shoot at the end is so sick!  I have questions about how the 3D camera editing works, but I don't even know how to ask the questions, lol  :o
Whoa, that is an amazing camera! Awesome footage of your trick. I agree with ta0, you should enter int the World Spintop Contest!

Thanks both for the comments, Neff you can find some videos in youtube about the 360 videos, My friends camera is an Insta360 one x, and they provide a software where you can edit the video before the exporting it to other video editing software. Check this review for more info

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHtutTyTvYY&ab_channel=PeterMcKinnon
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ta0

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2020, 01:02:38 PM »

The traditional Joker Choker is an alternation of trapeze mounts (drumbeat) and sewing machine catches (what I think you are calling vertical lasso).
A crossed trapeze works similarly to the sewing machine, but the looks are different. So it's not exactly the mirror version of the standard joker choker. It would still be of the same family.
It should be possible to do sewing machine catches with the left hand, but probably more difficult.

I look forward to your chiral joker choker video.
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Patrick

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2020, 01:39:56 AM »

Here is the video.



I'm thinking of editing it again to put on the names that will be chosen as definitive
 and add the 2 series of tricks that I missed.

I would like to know what you think about the names I used, if you can think
of a better one I would also like to know.

Here is a bit of information with the possible names and a bit of my way of thinking
 about the possible combinations
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kemxO6hsY8Hm4fh1LB73vBCIavywuV_r1YHYTkkpogg/edit?usp=sharing

And in case you're wondering...
I have no idea if the tricks are chiral or not, I guess it depends a bit on the perspective from where you look, I don't know
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ta0

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2020, 02:59:57 PM »

Wow, Patrick!
That's a Tour de Force!
Question: do you consider yourself ambidextrous or just right-handed? How you can regen with your left hand is impressive!

Trans Trapeze = catching the top pointing towards you and pulling the string for the pop with your left (non-throwing) hand. I'm not sure if the name is descriptive enough, but I still like it. You have it dominated. I notice that on the pop you cross the hands, while in a normal drumbeat we don't. Do you do it to increase the regen or because you just find it more natural to do with your left?

Zigzag Stitch = catching the top pointing away from you, with the arm crossed, popping up by pulling with the left. I see the reference to Sewing Machine (I don't sew myself, so I'm not sure if that is the correct stitch name  :P ). Here crossing the arms on the pull makes the trick look symmetric, what I like.

Chiral Joker Choker = left (non-throwing) handed Joker Choker. Like before, you replace the overhand sewing machine catch by a cross-arm trapeze, which are topologically equivalent. I think the name works. Crazy trick!

Isotonic Isotopic Spin = alternating hand pulls on a Joker Choker, crossed armed trapeze when tip pointing out, regular sewing catch when tip pointing in. I love the hand alternation which doubles the alternating theme of the Joker Choker. Perhaps you could embellish the trick by doing something with the free hand before re-catching the string, like tapping your hip or just showing it, palm to the front. Another crazy trick! I need some tonic because my brain is hurting!  :)

I haven't reviewed your classification document yet. But I congratulate you for exploring all these unexplored possibilities.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 10:04:05 AM by ta0 »
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Patrick

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2020, 08:13:38 PM »

Wow, Patrick!
That's a Tour de Force!
Question: do you consider yourself ambidextrous or just right-handed? How you can regen with your left hand is impressive!

I consider myself only right-handed although I have noticed that I carry out some activities as “left-handed”, examples: my cartwheel turns start with my right hand, when I skateboard my right foot goes in front and I use my left to propel myself , and when I cut a steak I use the knife in my left hand. It was not for a matter of comfort that I decided to use my left hand to regenerate, rather what caught my attention was a thought that I had while playing. I had a hard time adapting to the movement but mainly with the right hand, I suppose this is because I already have very mechanized movements with it. I also realized that normally the right hand performs a less complicated action than the left, since the left hand has to fetch the rope from the right hand, hold it, create tension, participate slightly in the catch, give rope feed , participates in the pop and once the top is suspended in the air, while releasing the rope, it gives direction to facilitate the next catch, avoiding knots forming in the rope. In other words, I think these chiral tricks increase the difficulty in the right hand more than in the left.



Trans Trapeze = catching the top pointing towards you and pulling the string for the pop with your left (non-throwing) hand. I'm not sure if the name is descriptive enough, but I still like it. You have it dominated. I notice that on the pop you cross the hands, while in a normal drumbeat we don't. Do you do it to increase the regen or because you just find it more natural to do with your left?

At the beginning I started doing it like this because that crossing of hands removes half a turn from the knot that forms the top in the rope by turning on its same axis, that leaves it with a knot and a position similar to that of the Sewing Machine before hitting the pop, so I decided it was a good idea for the left hand to pull the same way that the right hand normally makes on the swing machine (that ensured the regeneration would occur). At some point I tried not to do the crossing of hands, but I didn't have good results since more knots were formed in the rope and it became very difficult to locate the rope with the right hand to prepare the next catch.

Advice for those who would like to start unlocking this trick
Start with a trapeze and practice crossing your arms (right above, left below) release the rope with the right hand at the moment of pop, look for the rope and tighten with the right hand to perform the catch. Starting from the trapeze is starting with strength which will give you more time to think about the execution of the trick and that is good for starters, anyway I suggest you practice like that for half an hour or enough so that you feel familiar with the movement (you do not have to be achieving it), Now try it from the automatic you will notice that it requires more execution speed but after some attempts adjusting the speed you will see that it is not so difficult, then it is time to try again starting from trapeze and it will be easier for you to respond intuitively to the trick. Going from trapeze to trans-trapeze can be cumbersome even more than just doing the trans-trapeze.
Remember that to avoid knots after the moment of pop your right hand must be up and the left hand down, the greater the separation, the lower the probability of knots.



Zigzag Stitch = catching the top pointing away from you, with the arm crossed, popping up by pulling with the left. I see the reference to Sewing Machine (I don't sew myself, so I'm not sure if that is the correct stitch name  :P ). Here crossing the arms on the pull makes the trick look symmetric, what I like.

In the zig-zag the justification of the arms crosses is very similar to that of Trans-trapeze. I have been practicing it for much less time, in fact I started to perfect it recently after recording the video, so my technique has changed slightly. In the video you can see caches in which I am with my hands crossed waiting for the top to fall on the string, which is difficult to calculate, while my new caches the right hand has a movement similar to the catch of the Sewing Machine of course. with the particularity that now the right hand is the one that feeds the rope. Comparing in the video this trick with the Isotopic spin trick you can notice this difference.

My recommendations to get started with this trick are:
First unlock the trans-trapeze as the crossed hands pop is exactly the same.
As if it were a joker-choker starting with a trapeze followed by a half swing machine and now instead of performing a trapeze try to perform this zig-zag catch by taking the left hand slightly towards the right shoulder as you search with the right hand the left (to grab the rope) and execute the catch movement of the swing machine, at this point I recommend you have the left hand above the right near your body, and the right hand towards the front slightly separated from the body.
Remember this trick involves two different arms crosses, one for the catch with the left hand crossing above, and the pop with the left hand crossing below.



Chiral Joker Choker = left (non-throwing) handed Joker Choker. Like before, you replace the overhand sewing machine catch by a cross-arm trapeze, which are topologically equivalent. I think the name works. Crazy trick!

I had not tried this trick until the moment of recording the video and I must say that at first it was a headache, in my first attempts just after the zig-zag catch I performed a crossed arms pop which feels very comfortable to continue with the trick since it gives the top a very good direction and you can feel the friction it generates and is very controllable, in my head there seemed to be no doubt that the friction generated must be positive due to the direction in which the top rotates and the movement of the string in the opposite direction (favorable for regeneration), however despite the fact that in theory it worked in practice it didn't do so well as I noticed how little by little the top was losing speed and by the 5th or 6th catch I was turning to my left to compensate for catching them, which can only mean that I was losing speed, so somewhat frustrated I tried not to do the crossed arms pop and to do what compared to the Joker-choker it's more symmetrical that is to do the pop with open arms, I tried it a few times and the result was the same or worse, the pop difficult to control without friction sensation rather the opposite, it was as if the top slid like butter on the string what it did that giving the pull to pop was very difficult. So once again I tried my luck with the pop of crossed arms this time the crossing would be with the left hand on top, a couple of attempts were enough to realize that it was not going that way. Luckily I had the videos to study my mistakes, that's when I realized when doing the pop with crossed arms the spinning top rotated ⅙ back on its axis at the time of being catapulted (this is because when doing the crossing of arms it formed a half turn of the knot as opposed to the crossing of arms in tran-trapeze that removes half a turn of the knot) and that made me start to turn to the left, so I tried to perform the pop ⅙ of the turn before the top came into position but It was impossible, there is not enough time to do all the crossing of arms movement before the spintop reaches the correct position. I was already very frustrated and decided to change my approach, I looked for videos of similar tricks and I found the Neff half pipes, at that moment I knew that was the solution but I was unable to perform regeneration in that way, even it was too difficult for me to pops to lift the top, so I started to develop a technique that combined the 2 types of pops, the result is what you see in the video a pop of hands together but not crossed with a pull of the left hand upwards slightly inclined on the right. This pop solves the main problems of regeneration and position of the top, however preparing the next catch becomes a bit complex since sometimes the string is in positions that predispose to knots and tangles, so it is necessary to practice it until you are well familiar with the positions that the rope takes and thus master it. It is worth mentioning that I have never practiced the Half Pipes trick so surely someone who masters it like Neff could give the trick a better aesthetic by performing that pop instead of the one I used.

My recommendations for those who want to start with this trick:
First practice half pipes and also the isotopic spin



Isotonic Spin = alternating hand pulls on a Joker Choker, crossed armed trapeze when tip pointing out, regular sewing catch when tip pointing in. I love the hand alternation which doubles the alternating theme of the Joker Choker. Perhaps you could embellish the trick by doing something with the free hand before re-catching the string, like tapping your hip or just showing it, palm to the front. Another crazy trick! I need some tonic because my brain is hurting!  :)

The proposed name is Isotopic spin, this regeneration trick is my favorite, has a fast pace like the joker-choker, it gives excellent regeneration and there is something between going from one hand to the other that makes the string very manageable, well executed the rope never gets tangled or knotted, the movement for the caches is basically the same, like the pop that it's always opening arms and without pulling to either side, which impresses me, and I find strange that it works since in the chiral joker choker this did not work for me. I'm pretty sure if I did pop like the CJC it would give more feedback but I can't say for sure yet because I haven't tried.



I haven't reviewed your classification document yet. But I congratulate you for exploring all these unexplored possibilities.

Thanks for the congratulation, I recommend you take a tour of the document, it is very brief and I hope it is understandable


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ta0

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2020, 12:02:44 AM »

Quote
The proposed name is Isotopic spin, this regeneration trick is my favorite, has a fast pace like the joker-choker, it gives excellent regeneration and there is something between going from one hand to the other that makes the string very manageable, well executed the rope never gets tangled or knotted, the movement for the caches is basically the same, like the pop that it's always opening arms and without pulling to either side, which impresses me
Isotopic, not isotonic, of course!  :-[ Just from the looks, it's my favorite also.

I looked a bit at the document. I guess the X mark the possibilities that you have not practiced yet.

I think you need a naming system or nobody will remember the different names. I like that you have a theme going with quantum physics, plus giving a nod to the names for traditional dominant-hand tricks.
I propose that you pick a name for the two possible orientations of the top, and use them throughout to name the left (non-dominant-hand) pops. Quantum spin can be Up/Down and quarks can also be Top/Bottom, but I think less confusing would be North/South. For example:

Two trick combo
3. South Joker
4. North Joker
5- North Drumbeat
6- South Sewing Machine

Four mount tricks
The four mount tricks are more complicated. The ones in which you always switch North/South, 2 and 3, are of the genuine Joker Choker type. Naming the direction in which the non-dominant hand starts to do the pull:
2. South Alternating Joker (Wave/Oscillating/Undecided/Ambidextrous . . .)
3. North Alternating Joker
The ones in which you chain jokers by doing the hand change on the same side could be:
1. South Gluon Joker
5. North Gluon Joker
The other two stick on both sides, with hands always changing.
6- Gluon Joker
4- Anti-Gluon Joker


« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:00:23 PM by ta0 »
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Patrick

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 12:19:16 PM »

In fact, I have not tried the combinations marked with X, but they have the X because the orientation of the top between tricks is the same in at least 2, which means that to go from one trick to another the top would have to give a 360 ° turn and I think that breaks the flow a bit as it reduces the frequency between catches being less effective for regeneration and less like the Joker-choker.

I'm glad you like the quantum mechanics topic, your proposal is very good, in fact I had thought about it but like you I concluded that it would be somewhat confusing for those who are not aware of the subject.

I like your list of names. I am going to review it well and investigate more about the subject so that the names are as metaphorically correct as possible, although it seems that you already know a lot about quantum mechanics because I think that the Wave and Oscillating names are quite successful for the trick. It strikes me that of all the subatomic particles you have been inclined towards gluon, this has a specific reason ?. I also wanted to share this video with you, they talk about chirality and quantum mechanics, from my perspective it confirms that the tricks are chiral and provides terms that could improve the nomenclature for the tricks. Personally, it blew me away, I really recommend it,
 If I make any adjustments to the nomenclature you will soon find out

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ta0

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 12:39:41 PM »

The reason I used the gluon particle was that they stay on the same side for the exchange, so in a way stick or are glued to that side.
But as you say, they don't have the flow of Joker Choker. So probably need a different name.
Thanks for the documentary. I'll watch it later.
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Patrick

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Re: Extended Joker-choker?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2020, 01:46:46 PM »

I was thinking about the names for the tricks and end up with the conclusion that putting on new names is not worth it and it's enough to just put the word Chiral before the usual name.
I think this is a better alternative to avoid confusion since I have a feeling that all tricks have their chiral variation.
I recently tried to apply this logic with the barrel rolls (instead of holding the two ends of the string in the right hand, I hold them with the left) and the chiral result was successful because I achieved rhythm, movement and regeneration similar to the barrel rolls.
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