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Author Topic: What are arachnids?  (Read 6112 times)

Shootist

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What are arachnids?
« on: October 25, 2011, 02:21:56 AM »

What are Arachnids? I thinking a difficult trick ???
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Larry D.

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 10:08:22 AM »

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poptop

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What are arachnids?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2011, 12:52:59 PM »

I try to do Arachnids, but never get very many.  I think a lighter top helps (especially for fixed), but the OWB should be good too.

I've ocassionally landed boomerang to finger, but it's usually a split-second reaction rather than an intentional move.  A sharp tip/point is key!
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Erratic Wobbler

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2011, 12:38:53 AM »

Arachnids is freakin hard.  But thanks to Larry I wathed the video again and I think I understand where the regen is happening finally.

Thanks for the clip Tacky, loved it.
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ta0

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2011, 10:00:03 AM »

I have been working this last week on the trick using my Enzo-Giulia and a one-way-bearing tip. I can finally regenerate (several runs over 30 from a snap start) but my main problem is the top escaping the string. It requires very good control at both the upper and lower part of the trick. Actually, I am not sure if I am doing arachnids or one of the related tricks such as hammers (martillos) of Salvador or relámpagos (lightning) ??? I'll have to post a video and ask Salvador.

I think I am still a way off from translating this trick to a fixed tip top.  The funny thing is that, according to Salvador, Arachnids are easy (but Gustavo's hammers are very difficult).  Supposedly, Cuper learned them on the spot when Salvador showed him  :o  It is (I think) the first trick on this great regen marathon at the Trompo Mágico children museum:



« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 10:02:53 AM by ta0 »
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Shootist

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2011, 02:16:55 AM »

Thanks for the Video Larry. That Trick looks cool and hard.  It's way out of my learning curve for now.

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ta0

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2011, 07:28:09 PM »

When you do this trick with a 1wb top it is pretty easy to tell that regeneration happens when the top slides down the string. You know because its bearing quiets down.  But the top takes at least the same amount of time going up so I wondered if it could regenerate on that side of the trick. I caught the tip the opposite way (either on the drop from the hand or by catching a trapeze with the tip pointing towards me) and tried it: the trick works the same way!  But you can now hear the bearing going quiet on the way up and noisy on the way down. The regeneration efficiency seems to be very similar.

I believe I am doing exactly the same movements on both versions.  It is pretty neat that the trick works no matter on which side you catch the tip.  8) This will probably work the same way with a fixed tip instead of a 1wb tip, but I will need to try it to be sure.

Intuitively, it seems to me that there is more regeneration potential on the reverse bind, as you cannot eliminate the friction on the way up but you could decrease it in theory on the way down by feeding string fast enough. But my intuition can be completely wrong: to me tops spin beyond what it would be reasonable to expect!  ::)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 09:03:00 AM by ta0 »
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the Earl of Whirl

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2011, 08:15:58 PM »

I feel like johnm should chime in here.  I have a nice video of him doing arachnids with Don Olney's raffle top.  I hoped to have it posted by now but I still cannot get it to download correctly!
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johnm

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2011, 10:32:46 PM »

I feel like johnm should chime in here.  I have a nice video of him doing arachnids with Don Olney's raffle top.

I called what I did for Mike 'Arachnids' but now I'll retract that to say I do something 'Arachnid-like', since I really don't understand the naming conventions for this type of action. :-\  The action to which I'm referring is the feeding and retraction of string with the non-button hand to move the top up with retraction and lower the top with feeding.  I've had runs over 60 with a fixed tip after boomerang and button hand drop (like merry-go-round) so the first 5-7 reps are really just slowing the top down to maintenance speeds.  During the upper (top at the vertically high portion above the button hand) part of the trick, the top tip is towards me and the action after reaching the high position reminds me of the drop from the button hand when doing roller coasters .  In particular, the top needs to ride down the string in good contact with the string under the influence of gravity since this is the regeneration portion of the motion for this version.  During roller coasters, the non-button hand slowly feeds string by allowing the string to slip between the fingers and later in that trick the string is released and recaught near the button hand to again have a supply of string to feed out.  In this Arachnid-like trick, the string feeding is accomplished by maintaining a constant grip on the string and increasing the functioning length by moving the non-button hand closer to the button hand, and by moving the non-button hand away, the top rises and a new supply of string is available to feed out.

The key to the trick seems to be controlling the feeding of string as the top is falling.  Too fast and no regeneration free fall occurs coupled with a hard to control whip-catch like impact of the top back on the string.  Too slow and not enough string is fed out before the top's precession requires you to pull up which results in various problems like a hand crash or panic launch.  Speaking of the precession, the top begins to rotate when the string tension resumes after passing above the button hand and continues until the tension is released sometime during the upstroke thus resulting in a twist of the string which is removed by passing the top over the button hand.  One training trick is to allow one twist to form and remain in the string before beginning the repeated cycle.  I've found the single twist still allows the string to slide past itself reasonably well while providing an extra bind on the tip which helps to keep the top on the string.  I usually loose the top by it gently slipping out of the string just at the beginning of the fall after passing over the button hand.  The single twist and resulting bind does slow the top significantly but 20 or so reps are possible which is enough to practice the motions.  In addition to all this up-down stuff you have to worry about side to side action with the button hand to maintain the top at a reasonable angle to keep it on the string--slightly point down but mostly horizontal seems best for me.

But the top takes at least the same amount of time going up 

Intuitively, it seems to me that there is more regeneration potential on the reverse bind, as you cannot eliminate the friction on the way up but you could decrease it in theory on the way down by feeding string fast enough.

The time going up depends on how quickly you pull while the drop relies on gravity and your feed rate.  What is roughly the same for up and down should be the length of string passing the tip.  The way up sometimes resembles the 'pop' at the bottom of a roller coaster if you both pull the string with the non-button hand and lift up with the button hand so the top doesn't experience any string drag on the way up.  Whether this is a proper motion or not is something else  ;D
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ta0

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2011, 11:14:33 PM »

Great skill John! And a nice explanation of what is going on.

The time going up depends on how quickly you pull while the drop relies on gravity and your feed rate.  What is roughly the same for up and down should be the length of string passing the tip.  The way up sometimes resembles the 'pop' at the bottom of a roller coaster if you both pull the string with the non-button hand and lift up with the button hand so the top doesn't experience any string drag on the way up.
I did realize this was in theory possible. But considering my limiting problem is the top escaping the bind (generally while going over the hand), I cannot see how I could keep it on the string by pulling fast!  ::)

Have you tried the reverse bind with regeneration on the upward stroke? I am curious what you find out compared to the normal bind.
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Neff

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2011, 08:00:33 PM »

I want more video of JohnM in my life...
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johnm

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 09:57:15 PM »

Have you tried the reverse bind with regeneration on the upward stroke? I am curious what you find out compared to the normal bind.

I hadn't thought much about the reverse mode until your comments and then expected it to be much more effective because my up-stroke in 'normal' mode is consistently smoother than the fall-stroke and with a fast pull I hoped for easier speed maintenance.  However, I'm finding it difficult to do anything more than consume the initial spin and have yet to get more than 10 reps after starting at full speed.  (Just to convince myself it is not simply a bad day, I had several satisfying 50+ runs in normal mode).  From the trapeze mount, the sting maintains at least a half twist and the twist on the drop portion really binds the tip (fixed tip) slowing it down and making the drop rather 'jerky' since the string doesn't seem to slip past itself very well--which is unexpected because it slips OK in normal mode with an intentional twist.  I then used a lasso catch with the tip away to eliminate that twist but still have not exceeded 10 reps.  I suppose that I could be totally mistiming the regeneration pull since my learning curve is step but it definitely seems that for me the reverse mode string positions have more drag than the normal mode (another advantage to the one-way bearing) but I don't know why. ???  Perhaps its time to consult the experts.
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ta0

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Re: What are arachnids?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2011, 09:37:54 AM »

That is a little surprising. Using the 1wb tip I have done more repetitions with the reverse bind than with the normal bind. This weekend I'll see if I can transfer the trick to fixed tip.
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