What Do You Do With Your Top(s)?

[ta0]

A= Number of people who care about yoyos
C=Number of people who care or have interest in spintops

A/1000=C

As you can see, spintops are very "niche", and we are very exclusive. we are very careful about who we allow into our ranks. Basically, we are cool, before we are cool..... I am sure you get the gist. (I am joking, lol).

This is a limited view point from the US. In other countries spintops are more popular than yo-yos. And we are talking about string throw tops, but I believe you are not restricting yourself to them. If you include other tops like finger tops, whip tops, battle tops, etc, it is a even much bigger market.

I recall years ago an older man than me told me that when he was a kid, the top play was serious warfare. The tops were wood and they all filed their steel tips sharp. Then they threw their top as hard as they could at their opponents spinning top in an attempt to split it.

Very true. Before WWII it was a rite of passage for boys in most of US and Europe. It is still very popular in certain parts of the world. I have heard the stories of splitting tops from people all over, from the US to India.

Is Chris super-skilled? Or can lots of humans do that?

Although Chris is very skilled, the tricks he shows there are mostly beginner to intermediate, with some advanced (but not expert).
That is the main interest of the majority of members on this forum, but we also have members that are only interested in collecting or turning or other niches of spinning top play.

One interesting aspect of tops is spin time. It's very natural to seek long spin time. It's often viewed as a measure of top quality.
But, it has its limitations. What would you do with a top which spun (on a mirror or smooth surface) for an hour? It would be boring waiting for the next opportunity to launch.

Contest of spin time on the hand (about 1 minute) are regularly organized by some spintop companies in Mexico, Spain, etc. See these videos for example: Cometa contest 2014 Kids get very interested, but it is probably because of the contest prizes . . . By the way, traditional 1 hour + spin duration competitions take place in Malaysia (by grown up men).

I found the strongest interest came from 4th to 6th grade kids.]I found the strongest interest came from 4th to 6th grade kids.

That is the sweet spot. At that age they have a natural interest in tops.

[Jack]

However, I wonder how that example would work... Could you split a wooden top with another metal tipped wooden top? That seems danerous, but also unlikely.

breaking chunks out of and splitting tops happens alot actually
cecil knows...........cecil knows @-@

[Iacopo]

One interesting aspect of tops is spin time. It's very natural to seek long spin time. It's often viewed as a measure of top quality.

To see spin time as a measure of top quality seems a bit simplistic to me. I prefer to think that a top is a good top proportionately to the measure it makes well what is supposed to do, which is not necessarily to spin for a long time, since there are various kinds of tops, various contexts and aims.

[Jack]

To see spin time as a measure of top quality seems a bit simplistic to me. I prefer to think that a top is a good top proportionately to the measure it makes well what is supposed to do, which is not necessarily to spin for a long time.

this man speaks wisdom @-@

[Jeremy McCreary]

Welcome, Alan -- an honor to have you here! Your Aerobie Superdisc is my all-time favorite flying disc, even for golf, and I've been flying discs for almost 50 years now. The aerodynamics are simply beautiful.

I greatly admire fancy tricks with thrown tops, and some of the folks on this forum are literally world-class in that regard. But my interest in tops lies elsewhere.

I'm attracted to the finger top as a fascinating mix of visual design, physics, and engineering -- in short, as a kinetic art form. My medium is a little unusual -- no lathes involved.



Most of my collection (~12 times what you see in the video) is a lot more colorful, but the static and dynamic visual patterns one can make with black and white LEGO tops are hard to beat. (The dynamic patterns seen in video are generally very different from the ones seen in person. I enjoy designing for both.)



















Many more LEGO tops at http://www.moc-pages.com/folder.php/188421.

As you can see, the LEGO medium makes it easy to take top design way outside the box. But I'm also committed to performance. Getting the longest and smoothest spins possible out of a given visual design is a big part of the fun. Since release speeds of well over 1,000 RPM are common, aerodynamics can play a huge role in my spin times, but they don't always trump the esthetics.

As you might imagine, LEGO tops generally don't stand up to being thrown, but I've learned a lot about tops by hanging around here nonetheless, and I'm sure you will, too.

Again, welcome aboard!

[Aerobie]

Wow Jeremy,
I would have never guessed that one could make tops with Lego. You mention speeds over 1,000 RPM, am I right that those speeds would be with your smaller tops?
Very nice.
Alan

[Kirk]

Is Chris super-skilled?

Chris is one of 0.001% that sparked the occupy wall street movement. Wait... Maybe that was not what they are upset about.

Or can lots of humans do that?

The first 5 or so tricks can be taught to most any one. Then they become intermediate to advanced.

[Jeremy McCreary]

Wow Jeremy,
I would have never guessed that one could make tops with Lego. You mention speeds over 1,000 RPM, am I right that those speeds would be with your smaller tops?
Very nice.
Alan

Thanks, Alan! Size is a bit deceptive here, as you know. The factors that most limit release speeds by hand in my tops are axial moment of inertia and practice, practice, practice! Aerodynamic drag is probably next, as tip friction is minimal. Absolute mass and volume are much less important -- the latter especially, as LEGO parts tend to include a lot of air spaces.

With that in mind, I can spin really small tops like the ones below up to 1,500 RPM or so by hand...



These have masses of 6.6 g and rotor diameters of 32 mm.

However, I'm lucky to get 400 RPM out of one like this by hand...



This one has a mass of 126 g, a rotor diameter of 188 mm, and a very large axial moment of inertia as LEGO tops go.

With good aerodynamics, I can get much higher speeds with a variety of LEGO spin-up tools I've designed, including the inline planetary spinners shown here...

[Aerobie]

Well, I'm sure you know that these tops have a lot of aerodynamic drag.

For any shape or surface, drag is proportional to velocity squared.

If you plot RPM vs time, the RPM decays exponentially in the high speed range, which means that aerodynamic drag is dominant. Then at low speeds the decay becomes linear, which means that tip friction is dominant.

Alan

[Jeremy McCreary]

Well, I'm sure you know that these tops have a lot of aerodynamic drag.

For any shape or surface, drag is proportional to velocity squared.

If you plot RPM vs time, the RPM decays exponentially in the high speed range, which means that aerodynamic drag is dominant. Then at low speeds the decay becomes linear, which means that tip friction is dominant.

Alan

Yes, the tops I've shown you so far are rather dirty aerodynamically. The ones below are about as clean as LEGO tops get.



As expected, this batch produces some of my best spin times (up to 150 sec by hand, longer with a spinner), but visual design options are rather limited.

Thanks for the info about spin decay curves. I'll have to plot a few to see what comes out.

[113]

Dear ta0,

Perhaps my viewpoint is very limited, but why do you say this is the case in America and not else where? What reason is there for yoyos to be more popular in America than anywhere else? You may be right, I really don't know much about "spintop" popularity in other countries. I have noticed that they are VERY popular in Mexico and Spain, so I suspect you know more than I do about this subject.

But, take a look at YYE for example... How many spintops are offered? How many different commercial spintops are offered officially worldwide? I am not talking about little handmade tops, etc. I am talking about the "trick/string tip tops" here... YYE offers only two handfuls of spintops, but an infinite assortmant of yoyos. Almost every retailer, S8 included sells more yoyos than spintops. Go to a local toy store, how many spintops do you see? How many yoyos? maybe it is just america, but I have a feelig you will see that yoyos are much more common. YYE stocks thousands of yoyos, and maybe a few tops, even spintastics sells more yoyos than tops. Almost every single spintop manufacturer produces more yoyos than spintops. Even Energia, sells yoyos.

For the discusson above, I am not including finger tops, whip tops or battle tops. I am talking only about the "freestyle tricking tops", you know like quicksilver, or trompo, or energia, or lingdong, those style tops. Do you disagree? Are these kinds of tops more popular than yoyos worldwide?

I really find this subject extremely fascinating, and I agree that my views are highly biased, because I am only familiar with American spintops. You may have an arguement if you include ALL kinds of tops, but I am argueing for the sake of "freestyle" tops, like the ones most of us use.

I really would like to know what you think .

Thank you very much!
113

[studio42]

Dear ta0,

Perhaps my viewpoint is very limited, but why do you say this is the case in America and not else where? What reason is there for yoyos to be more popular in America than anywhere else? You may be right, I really don't know much about "spintop" popularity in other countries. I have noticed that they are VERY popular in Mexico and Spain, so I suspect you know more than I do about this subject.

Thank you very much!
113

I think the issue with America lately is that "new, trendy" toys tied to TV shows, movies or something else are what's all the rage.... and fads come and go quickly, yet skill toys somehow survive through it all. Why or how, I'm not sure. But, the lack of big box availability is a problem. People can't buy what they can't find, and they often don't realize what it is they are looking for or that places online sell this stuff.

I think we gotta go way-back, but with my story on how I got here.....

My experience with yoyos started with seeing it on TV as well as seeing "Bigger kids" in the park playing with them, often kinda busker-style, hoping for coins. Seeing it on TV, then seeing it "for reals" made me want to get try it, and so either that christmas or birthday(They are close), I got a Duncan Imperial, not shown how to use it and then ridiculed for my failure. 4 months later after trying and the string wearing out at the axle(and my re-tying it... not even my parents knew about string changing. When the string broke, they chucked it and got a new one, but most quit at that time). But we're talking 1978 timeline or so. 4 months later I was caught trying to repair the string yet again after it wore out and the yoyo was taken away... gone.
My exposure to spintops was non-existent at this point and really, except for something passing by quickly as a circus or sideshow act(typically on the TV), I could get a glimpse at it, but not enough to let me get a good look.
In 2011, after a series of back injuries due to audio(moving heavy gear), it was time to find a lighter hobby. Yoyo was chosen, and a big box store had the goods to get me started. If they didn't, well, the odds are this would have ended before it started. At 39, I was definitely not a "young starter".
Sometime during 2011, I saw a video with Andre Boulay that had spin tops in it and that is what caught my interest in tops. Before that, I recall this really depressing sounding and looking short or commercial or something(it was around 2 minutes long and on PBS in the 1970's) that featured talking whizzer type tops. Again, really no exposure to trick tops. In 2012, when I first did sound for BAC, I had requested Andre bring a top(which I paid for before he headed over), a Sophia. Yeah, talk about "go big or go home", right? Well, that didn't go anywhere and the top sat somewhat idle. I got a Bearing King, figuring that my friend who had one, we would learn together. We tried, but we failed. Two guys not knowing, having a hard time.... in 2013 I think, I got the Guilia, mostly because it made sense to get it. I also picked up some Trompo Bearing and Trompo Grande tops, so I'm at this point well over $200 in the hole and I'm not making any progress! Talk about over-committing.... yet I was determined. In 2014, I was unable to attend the US National Yoyo Contest, so my friend picked me up the small Spintastics I bought. The timing was good though. It was during October, I really cut my fingers up bad on cheap yoyo strings so I had to change gears to heal. That October I spent learning spin tops and went from frustrated to boomerang and beyond within 30 days using that Guilia top. Now I'm approaching 2 years of mediocre(but fun) top spinning and I'm happy. I throw yoyos and tops at the park and parents are "is that a yoyo?" when I spin tops and I tell them it is a spin top. Most are around my age, but many are younger and some are older, and the vast majority are in the dark. They know yoyo. Kendama has been crammed in their face. They know about many juggling(balls/beanbags, clubs, rings, maybe cigar boxes), but after that... mostly it's "no clue". The only ones who know about tops are either much older than I am, or they are often from Mexico and further south and many of them have very similar stories of how they played tops as a child. I like hearing these stories. Many are parents much younger than I am, say mid to late 20's and to mid 30s, while I'm 44 now.

Is it because in other countries, maybe parents introduce their kids to the stuff they grew up with? Are the trends less over-powering of the market? I do know that here, if it doesn't sell, it's delegated small space or made to go away. It's niche and not a big mover. Customers who want it are hit or miss. I do think interest is higher than we assume, but lack of availability kills interest. Gotta feed the interest NOW before it fades.... Or, take older guys like me who know what we want and can patiently wait for it. I'm planning to learn devil sticks and flower sticks, but I don't know when, but I want to get them soon so they'll be here when I'm ready. People like me are the exception. I started late, so I'm just coming at it with a "matured" approach. Kids gotta get on it while the fire is burning. Once the flame dies down, it might not come back.

All I know is I am kind of on my own path, but my kids are exposed to what I'm doing. Some are interested, some think daddy is an idiot. Whatever. But, I see the "father to child" handing down of things happening here, except the difference is I'm learning as I'm going. My kids, or at least my boy, will likely have a heads-up when it's his turn to do this, with more to offer. He's OK on yoyo and is struggling on spin tops, and he plays with my diabolos.

I think Ta0 here does a great job of trying to provide links to places that carry tops. It's really the best he can do. Short of big stores carrying the, or more smaller stores for that matter as well, the retail market is mostly going to be mail order for a while. Patience or planning ahead is the only way. Skill toys don't lend themselves to planning ahead, at least for first experiences. Carrying some inventory(even if just 1 or 2) doesn't make sense for a gamble of "will they or won't they".

For me, though to put it back on message thread topic, what do I do with tops? Whatever I can, have fun and use it for my own brand of therapy. I'm not sure if it's saving me money, but it sure is a lot more fun.

[Neff]

Alan, I am so excited to see you on here, I have enjoyed many of your inventions. The Aerobie flying ring goes sooooo faarrr, I play disc golf and the Epic is really neato, but my favorite invention of yours it the AeroPress coffee press, I use it every day. I love telling people about it almost as much as I love using it, it is fantastic.

There are several sub-genres of top spinning that an inventor like you could focus on. It seems your interest is mainly in the anybody-can-do-it finger spinner, and as you have found there is support for that on this forum. There is even a high-end boutique precious metal finger spinning culture that has developed, discussed here: http://www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/topic,4122.0.html

Skittles should be mentioned, it will be easier to just show a video than try and describe it.
I take this to juggling festivals and people play it non stop.


Battle tops would be the next level up in my opinion, as far as what the average Joe would be able to pick up quickly. Beyblades are one version of this, most of us on here prefer the traditional, string-wound, stand-up-and-throw version of the pastime. We do it at juggling festivals and it is absolutely infectious.

For several of us here on the forum, it is all about the tricks. In this genre, there is a need for large performance spin tops. What is available is mostly yo-yo size and that's fine but if performing for an audience, it just looks like a ball in your hand and the effect is lost. I think these tops should be 5" diameter minimum and be more like a Diablolo and less like a Yo Yo.

I hope you find the inspiration that you are looking for on this forum, you have created many wonderful things and I eagerly await your next endeavor!

[Aerobie]

Many people think that the Smothers Brothers ignited the most recent yo-yo cycle by doing tricks on their weekly TV show. But others think the last craze started in Japan and spread worldwide. People used to say that yo-yo's heated up every seven years, but it's been longer than that since the last peak.

Although competitions entail great skill, I'll guess that the majority of yo-yo's sold never even got to the most elementary tricks.

In developing the Megatop, I thought a top which was easy to wind, throw and catch would have broad appeal. I was aiming for the beginners, not the skilled folks. But sales are not great.

These days, the great majority of play, both adult and youngster, is done with electronic devices. We met a man who was part of a national program to get kids to play outside one hour per week. Yes, one hour per week!

I find it interesting that many toys or recreational products are used primarily in ways that diverge from their basic function or original intent. Examples:

Tops are used for string tricks, not spinning on a flat surface, which was the original idea.

Skateboards seem to fly down stairs and railings more than running on streets or sidewalks.

The Ultimate Frisbee, weighs 185 grams and is too heavy for an enjoyable game of catch, yet the majority of these "rocks" never see a game of Ultimate. People go into a store and buy the biggest disc there, even though 120 gram discs fly better.

My AeroPress coffee maker has become the object of worldwide brewing competitions in sixty countries. (see https://worldaeropresschampionship.com/). Who would have guessed that a coffee maker would launch worldwide competition?

Best regards,

Alan

[Aerobie]

Hello Neff,

Thank you for your kind words. Is that you on the earlier video in this thread, doing great string tricks?

I'm hoping to get together with some spinners who might motivate me to design some tops. I posted a suggestion for a San Francisco Bay Area get together. But there are no takers yet.

Thank you again,

Alan