for the world contest

[Jun]

If the online world contest is to be held in June this year as well, I believe we should start discussing the rules for the world contest soon.

And as a competitor, it would be desirable for discussions to conclude and rules to be finalized by the end of March.

The issues that were determined to be discussed at last year's annual meeting were:

- Whether training systems and certification programs are needed to improve judge quality
- Specific improvement proposals such as creating multilingual documentation, building an online video library, and holding regular workshops
- The need to clarify freestyle scoring criteria and deepen common understanding among judges
- The need to standardize specific scoring criteria, such as technique scoring methods and repetition judgment standards

These were the points.

Additionally, regarding divisions:

- Whether to divide divisions by top weight
- Whether to establish an artistic performance division
- Whether to abolish the traditional division

These points should be discussed.

First, I will write my opinions here.

To avoid any misunderstanding, I want to state first that I am a former world champion and current competitor. Therefore, objectively speaking, it might appear that I am trying to change rules to my advantage. However, my goal is never to gain an advantage for myself, but rather to ensure competitions are conducted fairly. Furthermore, I aim for these rule changes to result in more exciting world contest, making spinning top culture itself more popular, and allowing children to feel proud of themselves.



-Regarding Judge Certification

To conclude, all current judge certifications should be revoked, and they should be required to re-obtain their qualifications.

While I believe that the reflection of individual judges' values is not a major issue and should be accepted as unavoidable, there must be a solid common understanding regarding rules and viewing criteria.

In other words, scoring methods cannot vary between individuals.

For example, with two judges, it's acceptable if one scores three tricks as 1, 2, 3 points while the other scores them as 2, 3, 4. However, it's problematic if one judge scores 1, 2, 3 while the other scores 4, 3, 2, even if the total points are the same.

Everyone should use the same logic for calculating clicker points here.

Additionally, the point processing for performing the same technique multiple times should be confirmed by everyone and published in writing.

Judge certification should be granted through the following steps:

- Online theory training and examination (rules, scoring criteria, code of ethics, etc.)
- Video judging test for practical evaluation (scoring actual performance footage)
- On-site training under experienced judges (assistant judge experience at actual competitions)
- Regular renewal training (at least once a year)

Additionally, I believe the following requirements are necessary:

- At least 3 years of competition experience
- Ability to communicate in multiple languages (English is mandatory at minimum)
- Active competitors cannot serve as judges to avoid conflicts of interest

Certification should only be granted to those who meet these criteria and pass the certification exam. Furthermore, certifications should be valid for 2 years, with renewal examinations required to maintain judge quality.

However, it's clear that if we decide current competitors cannot judge with our current numbers, we will have a shortage of judges. Therefore, it's practical to allow competitors to judge divisions they don't compete in.

-Division by Top Weight

In my opinion, divisions by weight are not necessary.

While it's true that top weight affects which tricks are easier or harder to perform, it's not the case that lighter tops are disadvantaged for all tricks, nor are heavier tops advantageous in all aspects.

To win, competitors will choose their top weight based on the tricks they want to perform.

If we are to divide the open division, it should be by technique types rather than weight. For example, in the regen division, only regen techniques would be scored, and such technical criteria should be defined in the rules.

Regarding the Artistic Performance Division

I support creating this division.

However, we need to clearly define the purpose of this division and create scoring criteria that align with that purpose.

Personally, I believe "being impressive as a spinning top and expanding the possibilities of tops" should be mandatory scoring criteria.

For example, is recreating yo-yo tricks with a top really "impressive as a top"? Isn't that just an awkward yo-yo rather than a top? Does it make sense to do ball juggling without spinning the top? These are things we should consider from the start. This is, after all, a "spinning top world contest."

Furthermore, judges who score non-top performances should be carefully selected.

-Regarding the Traditional Division
I support its abolition.

[ta0]

Great timing, Jun. I was going to post today about the online contest.

I was thinking in having the deadline to submit videos, Sunday June 1st.

We had a great discussion about future contests during the General Assembly:
https://www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/topic,7365.0.html
Also about the judging:
https://www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/topic,7360.0.html

The consensus seemed to be that we wouldn't have a Traditional division anymore and we would replace it by an Artistic division. Weight divisions or special top divisions could be considered in the future when having a contest in a country where such a contest would help showcase a strong tradition of that country.

So I propose for the 2025 Online Contest:
1. Open Division (World Title)
2. Women and Youth awards
3. Artistic ITSA Award (teams of 1 to 4 players)

With respect to the judging of the technical divisions, I don't think we need a formal certification. What we need is players with significant competition experience, plus a discussion of the main scoring issues. To me the 3 main issues are:

A. Scoring of repetitions.
B. Drops, rewinds, change of tops (deduction points?, bonus points for 1-top/1-throw?)
C. Body juggling and stalls and bounces on props (including kenkoma) vs. string play

[Jun]

I agree with the divisions for the online contest. Additionally, rather than establishing the Traditional division every year, making the decision whether to include it based on the host region each year would align with the original philosophy and purpose of creating the Traditional division.

Regarding the certification system, the certification itself is not important. What's important is demonstrating that the judges have received appropriate training and fully understand the rules. I believe a certification system could be an effective tool for providing this proof.

As was the case with the online competition, at least a few Japanese participants were skeptical of the judges. This wasn't due to a lack of respect or underestimating them, but rather concerns about whether the judges fully understood the rules.

I believe that players' trust in judges is extremely important. Under the current rules, where subjective elements cannot be eliminated, each judge's values and level of understanding of the rules greatly impact the results.

For discussing the main scoring issues, I think we should first reach a consensus on the ideal image of a winning player.

It would be constructive to consider what scoring criteria would be desirable for that ideal player to win.

The following is not my opinion, but:

For example, if a player with diversity in their routine techniques should win, then techniques performed more than twice should not be counted in scoring.

Regarding drops and rewinds, if players without obvious mistakes should win, then they should be subject to deductions. However, if players who fearlessly attempt high-difficulty tricks should win, then these shouldn't be penalized, and such challenges should be encouraged.

As for body juggling and stalls, from the perspective that string should be used, these should be excluded from scoring. However, if we want to encourage players who expand technique diversity and the possibilities of tops, then they should be included in scoring.

[ta0]

I have prepared the rules for the 2025 online contest.
You can see the full rules here:

https://spintops.org/2025-online-contest-rules/

Before I propose them to ITSA's International Board for ratification, I wanted to get feedback from everybody.

The main change from last year is the replacement of the Traditional Freestyle by an Artistic Showcase. For this division, 3 votes would be from judges selected by ITSA (not necessary players) and 1 vote from a poll on this forum. The way I wrote it, any person registered on iTopSpin would be able to vote (an alternative would have been to have only ITSA members voting).

[jim in paris]

thanx for the text : it is clear and well written

I would suggest a recommendation
for Chonkake players :

to register in the Artistic Showcase division with the stress put on traditional outfits , scenary , and music.

good day!

jim

[DaneMartin049]

I have only been playing for about 7- 8 months, and have never competed. So I can’t comment too much on the scoring aspects. But as a rookie, the rules are clear as written. And I would want to participate.

[Jun]

Regarding the Open Division

I think it's very good that it's clearly stated that performing specific tricks more than three times will not count towards the score. This will help players when creating their routines.

I hope all judges will have a perfect understanding of this rule.

Regarding the Artistic Division

I believe the three judges should be selected with diversity in mind. For example, one from players, one from circus performers, and one from dancers.

Also, I am against having an audience judge. As we learned from the 2020 Online World Championship, when non-judges have voting rights, it can lead to arbitrary results. However, since there is value in selecting the audience's favorite, perhaps we could create a separate award for this.

[ta0]

Thanks for the feedback Jun. The rules are already been discussed by the International Board.

I agree that the "public" vote can be tricky. Players from countries with more players or more people willing to register on an English language forum for voting, would have an advantage. Hopefully people will vote for the best one, regardless of the nationality.

[jim in paris]

hello again

about the new Artistic division

I totally agree with Jun

quote "I believe the three judges should be selected with diversity in mind. For example, one from players, one from circus performers, and one from dancers.Also, I am against having an audience judge. "

in many competitions : circus ,theatre, movie awards etc
there is an "audience award" , a "prix du public", independent from the the panel of judges .
Jun ' s amendment , which aims at securing a fair calculation of each performance , needs/requires to be discussed and voted.
it is not too late

thanx for you feedback

jim

[ta0]

I agree
I changed the rules following Jun's suggestion: 3 votes by judges and an Audience Award by poll voting on the forum. Hopefully, it will be confirmed by the International Directory this weekend.