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Author Topic: introducing myself  (Read 11205 times)

ortwin

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introducing myself
« on: January 30, 2021, 11:37:56 AM »

Hi, my name is Ortwin.

I found this forum recently when I got my Quark top out again trying to  improve on my old personal longest spins. Since I lost the manual, I thought I could find it online.

So my interest that brought me here is to spin a finger top for a very long time, if possible for more than 30 minutes.

I bought my brass Quark top  in 2010 and managed to get regularly spins that lasted for over 15 minutes. My best time being 18 min. and 31 sec.  (I remember it that precisely because that time corresponds to 1111 seconds).
My other top related interests are building magnetic (and ) and spinning .

I am sure  I can learn a lot from you here, and maybe I can even contribute something.
See you around,
Ortwin
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 10:30:46 AM by ortwin »
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In the broader world of tops, nothing's everything!  —  Jeremy McCreary

CUPER

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2021, 11:45:19 AM »

Bienvenido ,llegaste al lugar correcto saludos de Guadalajara México
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2021, 01:18:34 PM »

Hi, my name is Ortwin.... I am sure  I can learn a lot from you here, and maybe I can even contribute something.

Welcome aboard, Ortwin! I'd say you just contributed some very intetesting videos. And I look forward to learning more about maglev tops from you.

Our resident maestro of long-spinning finger tops is Iacopo Simonelli, forum screen name Iacopo -- and not just for his spin times, which in some cases approach an hour! His tops are also carefully engineered and exquisitely crafted works of kinetic art.



His latest post here...

http://www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/topic,6280.0.html

I'm interested in all aspects of top design. Spin time isn't everything, of course, but if I had to name some of the more important influences in finger tops, they'd be air resistance, center of mass height when vertical, axial moment of inertia, and stem diameter, in roughly that order.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2021, 01:50:11 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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Art is how we decorate space, music is how we decorate time ... and with spinning tops, we decorate both.
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ta0

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2021, 01:44:35 PM »

Welcome to the forum Ortwin!
Are you in Germany? Or perhaps Austria?

Wow! That's a long time for a brass Quark top! More than I have achieved with my tungsten Quark!

I love the magnetic levitating tops you have made. I need to try a sphere on one of my commercial Levitrons. You also gave me the idea on how to spin a throw top using the homopolar motor design.



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Texture

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2021, 11:45:43 PM »

Welcome to the forum! There's quite a few people here who are into finger spinning and "precision" tops like the Quark. 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 11:45:24 AM by Texture »
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ortwin

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2021, 07:31:45 AM »

Welcome to the forum Ortwin!
Are you in Germany? Or perhaps Austria?

Wow! That's a long time for a brass Quark top! More than I have achieved with my tungsten Quark!

I love the magnetic levitating tops you have made. I need to try a sphere on one of my commercial Levitrons. You also gave me the idea on how to spin a throw top using the homopolar motor design.
Correct, I am in Germany.

The Quark top was very unbalanced to begin with. The washers supplied were no enough to correct this. I had to fill one of the three holes completely with lead an leave another one almost empty to get a balanced top. ......This time around I could not get far beyond 13 minutes and I discovered there are more issues with this Quark top. The metal ring is not perfectly aligned with the black plastic inside, there is an angle that can be observed with the laser method and  you can even feel it with the finger. Also the tip does not look perfectly smooth under a microscope.Magnetic levitating top: What is the size of the magnetic sphere you want to spin? You are aware, that you need a levitation base where you have a means of changing the magnetic field, since you can't play around with the weight of the top much, right? Anyways I would suggest you try to get a magnetic sphere spinning first far away from the levitron base. This can be frustrating in itself until you first succeed. I can give you helpful hints of course, if you want me to.
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ortwin

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2021, 07:42:48 AM »

Hi, my name is Ortwin.... I am sure  I can learn a lot from you here, and maybe I can even contribute something.

Welcome aboard, Ortwin! I'd say you just contributed some very intetesting videos. And I look forward to learning more about maglev tops from you.

Our resident maestro of long-spinning finger tops is Iacopo Simonelli, forum screen name Iacopo -- and not just for his spin times, which in some cases approach an hour! His tops are also carefully engineered and exquisitely crafted works of kinetic art.

I'm interested in all aspects of top design. Spin time isn't everything, of course, but if I had to name some of the more important influences in finger tops, they'd be air resistance, center of mass height when vertical, axial moment of inertia, and stem diameter, in roughly that order.
I saw the artistic tops of Iacopo, I admire his record spin times and have learned a few things already from his videos.Most of his tops feature that recessed tip design. That is great, but not what want in tops I like to play with. Still, inspiring work!
How do you think stem diameter is a important parameter? Is it its relation to the maximum rpm one can achieve?

 
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2021, 11:42:32 AM »

I also prefer tops I can spin on a table. Keep in mind, however, that if you could extend a Simonelli's tip just enough to give it a good hard twirl on a table without scraping, you'd still have a nearly ideal design for maximizing spin time.

How do you think stem diameter is a important parameter? Is it its relation to the maximum rpm one can achieve?

Exactly. For any top, the greater the release speed, the longer the spin, all other things (like tilt) being equal. And the maximum release speed a given user of a given finger top can actually attain will depend in a complicated way on stem diameter.

Ideally, the thinner the stem, the faster the release speed. But at some point, your fingers start rubbing against each other -- especially during strenuous twirls. For a finger top with a typical axial moment of inertia (AMI), my rubbing limit is around 3.5 mm. For a very low-AMI top, I can go as thin as 3.0 mm, but only with great care.

But 3.5 mm is way too thin to start a high-AMI top like a Simonelli -- hence his tapered stems. The idea is to grip a thicker knurled or splined part of the stem to deliver an optimal starting torque and then let your fingers climb the stem to ever smaller diameters as the twirl proceeds -- not unlike going from lower to higher gears to accelerate a car.

As finger tops go, most of mine have intermediate AMIs. These get good spin times with a splined but untapered 4.8 mm stem at least 16 mm long. For the high-AMI tops, I use the twirling technique described above with a stem stepping down from 6.0 to 4.8 mm

For spin time, the last thing you want is a stem ending in a short knob.



« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 01:41:09 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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ta0

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2021, 01:29:42 PM »

The Quark top was very unbalanced to begin with. The washers supplied were no enough to correct this. I had to fill one of the three holes completely with lead an leave another one almost empty to get a balanced top. ......This time around I could not get far beyond 13 minutes and I discovered there are more issues with this Quark top. The metal ring is not perfectly aligned with the black plastic inside, there is an angle that can be observed with the laser method and  you can even feel it with the finger. Also the tip does not look perfectly smooth under a microscope.
Mine required several O-rings to balance, but that was enough. I never looked at the tip with a microscope.
The Quark top was the first precision high-duration commercial finger top. But with the popularity EDC tops, you can now get higher duration tops from many manufacturers (2019 Texas TopCon).

Magnetic levitating top: What is the size of the magnetic sphere you want to spin? You are aware, that you need a levitation base where you have a means of changing the magnetic field, since you can't play around with the weight of the top much, right? Anyways I would suggest you try to get a magnetic sphere spinning first far away from the levitron base. This can be frustrating in itself until you first succeed. I can give you helpful hints of course, if you want me to.

When I wrote that, I wasn't thinking about the need to adjust the weight. Yes, that would be a big problem. Anyway, I need to order a bigger magnetic sphere as the ones I have are very small (4.75 mm). I did try yesterday to spin an aluminum top with a steel tip hanging from a magnet, using the homopolar motor idea, but failed. I need to experiment more.

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ortwin

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2021, 02:58:02 PM »

But with the popularity EDC tops, you can now get higher duration tops from many manufacturers (2019 Texas TopCon).

I ordered this one: https://jpgamesltd.co.uk/Executive-Toys/Spartan-Spinning-Top
I see some possibilities to balance it if  needed. Hope to get past the 20 minutes with this. I am really surprised that I find none that offers balancing with setscrews or something.
What is there on the market you would recommend for high spin times?
Also I could not find results from competitions like "2019 Texas TopCon" listed on web pages to give me an idea of what is a good time these days. (I know Iacopos records from this forum)

Magnetic levitating top: What is the size of the magnetic sphere you want to spin? You are aware, that you need a levitation base where you have a means of changing the magnetic field, since you can't play around with the weight of the top much, right? Anyways I would suggest you try to get a magnetic sphere spinning first far away from the levitron base. This can be frustrating in itself until you first succeed. I can give you helpful hints of course, if you want me to.

When I wrote that, I wasn't thinking about the need to adjust the weight. Yes, that would be a big problem. Anyway, I need to order a bigger magnetic sphere as the ones I have are very small (4.75 mm). I did try yesterday to spin an aluminum top with a steel tip hanging from a magnet, using the homopolar motor idea, but failed. I need to experiment more.
Use thick cables like the ones used for big speakers. You have a few amps flowing there from a 1.2 V rechargable battery. The cable going to the plate is best soldered firmly to the plate. The plate should not be solid metal, the eddy currents would slow the top down. I use a circuit board.I would start with a sphere of about 20 mm in diameter, the 30 mm ones are harder to accelerate and control.

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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2021, 03:34:34 PM »

...what is a good time these days. (I know Iacopos records from this forum)

Iacopo's also made some non-recessed tops for table (not pedestal) play. Maybe he'll remind us which ones. Consider whatever he got with those a good spin time.

Streamlining is a big factor here. The intricate surfaces seen on many high-end EDC tops come with a spin-time penalty.
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ta0

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2021, 03:47:24 PM »

I see some possibilities to balance it if  needed. Hope to get past the 20 minutes with this. I am really surprised that I find none that offers balancing with setscrews or something.
What is there on the market you would recommend for high spin times?
Also I could not find results from competitions like "2019 Texas TopCon" listed on web pages to give me an idea of what is a good time these days. (I know Iacopos records from this forum)
EDC's made of one piece of metal machined on a numerically controlled lathe should come out perfectly balanced, so no need for adjusting screws.
I think you should send Princess Trouble a message through the board. She is the expert on EDCs.

I saw the artistic tops of Iacopo, I admire his record spin times and have learned a few things already from his videos.Most of his tops feature that recessed tip design. That is great, but not what want in tops I like to play with. Still, inspiring work!
My top from Iacopo has an external tip. It came with a base for easy spinning but he later sent me a replacement tip that holds a ceramic ball. With that tip it's not too difficult to spin on a table at moderate RPM's without scratching the surface. Of course, if you are trying to get maximum speed, it becomes difficult to do.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2021, 05:20:33 PM »

My top from Iacopo has an external tip. It came with a base for easy spinning but he later sent me a replacement tip that holds a ceramic ball. With that tip it's not too difficult to spin on a table at moderate RPM's without scratching the surface. Of course, if you are trying to get maximum speed, it becomes difficult to do.

The trade-offs involving AMI, starting torque, scrape angle, critical speed, and spin time are especially tough. Again, Iacopo's lead is a good one to follow, as a longer stem gives finer tilt contol during spin-up.

That means you can deliver a given starting torque at a smaller ground clearance, scrape angle, and CM height without scraping.

If the density of the stem material is low, lengthening it will have little adverse effect on CM height or the ratio of transverse to axial moment of inertia. Hence, critical speed's unlikely to increase and may even improve.

When the trade-offs are played just right, a longer spin time with no scraping can be achievable. Practice also helps, to a point.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 06:50:03 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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ortwin

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2021, 06:15:01 AM »



The trade-offs involving AMI, starting torque, scrape angle, critical speed, and spin time are especially tough. Again, Iacopo's lead is a good one to follow, as a longer stem gives finer tilt contol during spin-up.

That means you can deliver a given starting torque at a smaller ground clearance, scrape angle, and CM height without scraping.

If the density of the stem material is low, lengthening it will have little adverse effect on CM height or the ratio of transverse to axial moment of inertia. Hence, critical speed's unlikely to increase and may even improve.

When the trade-offs are played just right, a longer spin time with no scraping can be achievable. Practice also helps, to a point.
But what about stemless tops?I saw a video here in the forum (actually I think it was in a post of yours) where a top made from a coin spun for 12 minutes.
At the beginning of the year I bought two of these: https://www.amazon.com/Spinners-Mezmocoin-Mesmerizing-Illusion-Perfectly/dp/B08NC3ZNT9/ref=sr_1_259?dchild=1&keywords=decompression+toy+spinning+top&qid=1612102877&sr=8-259

Surprisingly they really spin quite long. A slightly improved one gave me yesterday a spin of 13:02 .  Starting at around 1100 RPM, toppling at around 130 RPM.
Now I am trying to make a larger one myself. If it does not reach ten minutes, you will never hear from it again. If It surpasses 15 minutes I will brag about it of course ;D .

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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: introducing myself
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2021, 11:41:46 AM »

How do you spin up your Amazon purchase?
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