iTopSpin
Current Posts => Latest Spin => Topic started by: ta0 on August 12, 2012, 01:19:38 PM
-
It seems next year there will be a schism in the yo-yo community and this will affect tops. Over the last 2 or 3 years, the Czech yo-yo association, backed by others, has been talking about organizing a world yo-yo contest Prague, building upon their success organizing an European contest. But Greg Cohen, who has organized the current world contest in Orlando since the 2000 contest, has made it clear he will continue doing so. Last year around the time of worlds, things got ugly when when both parties claimed to have been treated by contempt by the other. The result is that next year there will be two alternative international/world contests, regrettably in the same dates if things don't change. As by chance the Czechs also are into tops, there should be two international/world spintop contests.
I will do what I can to support both contests next year. Greg's because of the continuity of a spintop contest that has been going on for a dozen years. The Prague contest because a world contest has almost by definition to travel around the world. Unfortunately, if they take place simultaneously, it is impossible to go to both (and even if they weren't, it would be difficult). Mark Hayward is already hired to be the MC for Orlando next year. Because of their promotion seasons, the Cometa players (Gus!!) will likely also go to Orlando. On the other hand, if I can I will go to Prague, probably as a judge/spectator, but perhaps to compete.
-
I will be at worlds Orlando!
We will be in the states at that time. :)
-
WORLDS in orlando will not be the same if you are not there
-
"a world contest has almost by definition to travel around the world"
Hmmm? Perhaps Mr. ta0 has never heard of the lumberjack world championships?
===========
I have also been reading about the world pipe band association contest with 30,000 people in the stands.
===========
Looks like the world championships of air guitar have always been in Oulu, Finland.
==========
Hmmm.....the ironman world championships look interesting!
===========
World championships of frog jumping are pretty exciting.
I will have to bed now and continue my research later!
-
The Czechs and Europeans are not alone in this initiative, at least one faction of the Japanese and even many Americans (André Boulay is the point man but he has also tried to be a mediator) are behind the idea of having worlds going from county to country (or continent to continent). Personally, I have always thought that should be the case, but I am saddened this will not be a smooth transition. Last year I talked a lot with Greg trying to convince him that that was the way to go, to no avail. In addition to the players, there are other interests involved. For example, Yoyofactory has not sponsored the Orlando contest for two years in a row due to the 5A division controversy about the Duncan patent, and will support the Prague contest.
The idea they have is to form a World Yo-yo association that will certify the new contest. I believe the plan is that in 2103 it will be in Europe, 2014 in Japan and in 2015 probably in the US. Of course, spintops do not need to follow yo-yos, and could go to Mexico instead of Japan, for example (although I would hope the Japanese koma players would get involved organizing a Japanese contest). On the other hand, the current worlds is organized privately by Infinite Illusions. Greg took the baton from Dale Oliver who started it around 1990 and bought his trademark of "World Yo-Yo Contest" for a symbolic $1.
WORLDS in orlando will not be the same if you are not there
Thanks for the thought, Eli. But in life nothing remains the same. Hopefully things will work out well for the sport. Actually, one good thing already came out of this: never had all the scores been posted so fast on the worlds website (competition does that). You can even pre-register for 2013 already!
-
It sounds like everything is already decided for top spinning next year. Who made all the decisions? I am at least glad we are now talking as if a contest in Orlando will be taking place. For a while it sounded like top spinning would not be considered on stage next year at worlds.
And I do call the event worlds because the way everything was explained to me the "World Yo-Yo Contest" is more than a trademark. It is a copyright. And that $1 was more than symbolic, as lawyers explain it to me.
It was not mentioned that Greg Cohen has to work several years ahead. He has the Rosen booked several years in advance in order to get that fine facility in that great location. There is significant risk involved with hosting this event.
A few years ago I had someone from the Asian Festival try to take over our Whirled Top Festival in Miamisburg. They told many people and organizers where we would be meeting (with their group) and when we would be meeting and how we would do the whole event. It wasn't until months later that I was contacted to see what I thought about the whole thing. It was a mess. On top of that, the other group also wanted me and others to put money in our spinning event while they called the shots (and did not put in any money). It turns out that they weren't even worried about the next year. They just wanted control right then and didn't have any long range plans.
I feel for Greg because he has done more than just provide "continuity of a spintop contest that has been going on for a dozen years." He was a significant part of us getting off the ground with a world championship. He helped us get started and he made awards when there wasn't money and he helped keep us going through lean times.
As one who has had others attempt to "take over" a spinning event, I feel badly for Greg. The Prague contest feels like a "take over" and putting their event at the same time and trying to cut into the World Yo-Yo Contest is divisive.
-
Well, I don't think everything is yet decided but I am trying to pass on what I know and my best guess of what is going to happen so everybody is aware of what is going on and we can have discussions such as this one.
Actually, nobody has told me that there will be a spintop international/world contest next year in the Czech Republic! What I know is that things are going ahead for a yo-yo contest over there, supported by very important people in the yo-yo community (but by no means all). I also know that the Czechs have included a spintop contest in the European tournament they have organized the last few years, and that they have very good spintop players, so I am assuming that there will also be a spintop contest.
I am not an insider in the yo-yo community and I don't know everything that has been going on. Obviously, the Japanese have been the backbone that has made the Orlando contest a true world title. But after all these years it is understandable that they want to once have home advantage and not be the perennial visitors (from far, far away). I believe the Japanese point man on this move is Hinori Mii (who I think has come to Orlando for the past 12 years). I heard that inspired by the European contest he organized the best Japanese nationals to date and now feels he can organize an international contest. To a lesser extend, it is also understandable that the Europeans want a world contest in their continent, one to which they can take a train ride. This year, probably because of the economy (but perhaps also because of the yo-yo politics), there were less than 10 European players in Orlando!
I am very grateful to Greg for having kept the spintop contest alive for over a decade in spite of some years barely having enough players to compete. Hey, I can claim I have a "world" title thanks to him! I think I have showed it by going every year after I won and stopped competing, just to judge and help keeping it going. That is why last year I tried to make him see the writing on the wall and why when he asked me point blank a little over a week ago what I was going to do, I told him that I would try to go to Prague but I would make sure the spintop contest in Orlando was supported.
-
Well since this is open for decussions here is my opinion. The Worlds Yoyo/Spintop Contest in Orlando has some main people that I consider to be the Cornerstone of the Spintop event. (ie. Dale & Val Oliver, Dick Stohr, Mike Hout, Jorge Alcoz and Eric Wolff.) Without these people being present the spintop event tends to suffer. For example this year we all missed Eric Wolff and his wonderful yet skillful classes on Turning Spintops on a Lathe. His overall presents just adds to the event.
I think having another European/World Contest during the same dates as the Worlds Yoyo Contest Orlando would only divide the people between the 2 contests and weaken the Spintop Events.
For Example: You don't see Great Golfers like Tiger Woods having to decided between playing in the British Open Golf Tournament or the U.S. Open Golf Tournament both consider Major Golf events. Both are held at different times of the year to maximize participation of players and attendance.
(Participation at Worlds Spintops.) This forum has many skillful spintop players that I would like see coming to Worlds to compete in the event. However due to Economic issues, Work issues, etc. they don't come. I would like to find a way to give them some incentives and encouragement to come. Any suggestions?
However my sons and I love the World Yoyo/Spintop Contest and would hate to see it change.
Keep in mind this is my Opinion
Respectfully Mike
-
OK OK !!
here is my drop into the soup :
GReg after Dale has been the engine of the world yoyo and spintop contest
fact
that said the Czech have been successfully organizing the European yoyo contest, despite their lack of debate with the other euro countries , notably during the various euro-meetings since Jesolo...but every one agreed and participated ,italians , french germans british and many others
the overall output is top level : live feed ,HD cameras,great stage and timing,cheap accommodation and entry fees .. etc
fact
now if the dates of the WYYC are the same , that's a major bug!
it needs a compromise , just from the players view point ,
as far as we are concerned , spintop-wise, I would like to see the World
Spintop Contest in Mexico next year
why?
-not so far of you guys in the US
-chance to really meet another culture
- surf on the cometa wave ,with salvador gus and the other Hidalgos on site
-pretty sure TV coverage
-plenty of kids whom you'll never see at the Rozen
-for Ludo and me,having trompillo and Muzi to help us with spanish ;;--)))
- like Jorge we could all visit the cometa factory and dream ..
etc ....
the dates would have to fit central americas' s weather i suppose , in late summer would fine to me
now hear this:
if we have to create an international spintop association in order to patent the World spintop Contest ,
I volunteer
to become the Chairman
how does sound , folks ? 8) 8)
jim
-
My thought when the conflict was announced was: why must they compete, why not complement.
They got mad because GReg came upon a deadline and had to make a decision with the info he had.
The "move worlds idea" has been full of limited, bad, or no communication.
Jim, good thoughts. It was very hard for the yo-yo community when it became necessary to walk away from the IJA. Lots of work from a lot of really good people.
-
Ahh....the IJA days. That is what is so amazing about this whole thing for me. I remember very clearly those early years of the 90's when a few yo-yo people would gather in a corner at the IJA festival (International Jugglers Association) and do their own thing. The group started growing and Dale got people involved in contests in the mid '90s. Now the yo-yo community seems to continue to grow and do fairly well while the numbers at the IJA festivals have been dwindling.
I know Dick remembers those days very well. So does Mark Hayward. And of course Dale was there along with Jon Gates and others. Actually, I remember Don Olney very well from those days!!!
-
OK OK !!
here is my drop into the soup :
GReg after Dale has been the engine of the world yoyo and spintop contest
fact
that said the Czech have been successfully organizing the European yoyo contest, despite their lack of debate with the other euro countries , notably during the various euro-meetings since Jesolo...but every one agreed and participated ,italians , french germans british and many others
the overall output is top level : live feed ,HD cameras,great stage and timing,cheap accommodation and entry fees .. etc
fact
now if the dates of the WYYC are the same , that's a major bug!
it needs a compromise , just from the players view point ,
as far as we are concerned , spintop-wise, I would like to see the World
Spintop Contest in Mexico next year
why?
-not so far of you guys in the US
-chance to really meet another culture
- surf on the cometa wave ,with salvador gus and the other Hidalgos on site
-pretty sure TV coverage
-plenty of kids whom you'll never see at the Rozen
-for Ludo and me,having trompillo and Muzi to help us with spanish ;;--)))
- like Jorge we could all visit the cometa factory and dream ..
etc ....
the dates would have to fit central americas' s weather i suppose , in late summer would fine to me
now hear this:
if we have to create an international spintop association in order to patent the World spintop Contest ,
I volunteer
to become the Chairman
how does sound , folks ? 8) 8)
jim
(most of) THIS ^^^
-
I believe (and hope) that the Czechs will change the dates so the two contests do not coincide. In fact, André told me that they had announced the dates without consulting Hinori and himself. It would hurt both contests, as shootist and Dick said, if that was not the case. Still, for most people it will be impossible to go to both. The big test for Orlando will be in 2014 if the other one moves to Japan.
The idea of having a contest in Mexico will happen, sooner or later. In fact, Humberto mentioned that "in a few years" Cometa would like to organize one and Cuper already offered to look for sponsors for one in Guadalajara as soon as next year.
Eventually, spintops need to get from under the yo-yo umbrella so we can control our own destiny (and don't get relegated as an after thought addition to a yo-yo contest). Even Greg said to me that one day it will happen and mentioned the yo-yo split from the IJA. I think you are right Jim, it is time to start SPIN and you will get my vote for chairman.
-
I believe (and hope) that the Czechs will change the dates so the two contests do not coincide. In fact, André told me that they had announced the dates without consulting Hinori and himself. It would hurt both contests, as shootist and Dick said, if that was not the case. Still, for most people it will be impossible to go to both. The big test for Orlando will be in 2014 if the other one moves to Japan.
The idea of having a contest in Mexico will happen, sooner or later. In fact, Humberto mentioned that "in a few years" Cometa would like to organize one and Cuper already offered to look for sponsors for one in Guadalajara as soon as next year.
Eventually, spintops need to get from under the yo-yo umbrella so we can control our own destiny (and don't get relegated as an after thought addition to a yo-yo contest). Even Greg said to me that one day it will happen and mentioned the yo-yo split from the IJA. I think you are right Jim, it is time to start SPIN and you will get my vote for chairman.
Top heptathlon!
-
I am still confused about why we have to have one world championship? In track and field there is an indoor world champion and an outdoor world champion. In boxing and wrestling when there was interest (meaning they thought they could make some money) in having another world championship they simply got another name and had another event. The same seems to be for other sports. The world cup is a highly respected and highly anticipated event and the winner is considered champion of the world. Why not a world cup of top spinning and then there would be that much more exposure for our sport? Other titles used by wrestling includes: International World Championship, Global Championship and Intercontinental Championship. In body building they have the Universe Championship, the World Masters Championships and more. Why do we have to shake things up with one competition in order to build another one up? I say we don't. Just find another name!
-
Actually, Mike, two co-existing tournaments is exactly what it seems is going to happen. I don't think the other contest will be called World Yo-yo (Spin Top) Contest. More likely it will be something like World Yo-yo (Spin Top) Championship. And there are many other variations for naming the events. What I don't think there are real alternatives is to the title of "World Yo-yo (Spin Top) Champion" (except variations like "Spinning Top" or just "Top"). But of course, the title can be qualified with the name of the association that certifies it: Acme World Yo-Yo Champion :P, etc.
The fight is for the right to claim preeminence, considering a limited community of competitive players and paying sponsors. A unified title would be the ideal, but at least for the next two years there will be two competing tournaments (another naming option). If the market can bear both, they will continue like that. If not, one will collapse. For 2 or 3 years Yoyonation organized an international contest in New York a couple of weeks after worlds (Yoyonation is a competitor or Infinite Illusions). But in the end it did not last. Although it was a continuation to Orlando more than a strict alternative, in a way Greg's contest won.
One intriguing possibility in the top spinning community would be to have a meta-contest, scoring the videos of all the freestyles together. This could get interesting if Gus competes in Orlando and Gerardo in Prague (not impossible).
-
Many great thoughts and discussion in this thread.
One intriguing possibility in the top spinning community would be to have a meta-contest, scoring the videos of all the freestyles together.
I love the idea of determining each year's World Champion through a means that does not require extensive travel for all involved. Things would be so much simpler if there were no physical World Contest, only a virtual one, and all contests would have regional titles (like "US Open" instead of "Worlds"). All we would need then is the framework for the virtual contest.
ALSO, perhaps these regional events could then have more of a focus on newer players. More like a juggling festival, less like a yo-yo contest.
-
OK, I'm new and don't even have a patch of any sort. I still wonder about the "world" contest. The Orlando contest had 7 in free style, 5 in ladder and 4 in mods. I am trying to imagine any other sport that has 12 competitors and 2 world contests. Clearly tops ride the coat tails of yo-yos. I'm having lots of fun with tops and hope the best for the hobby. As you can see, I don't really have a point to make. Still, I wonder if the lack of participation is like the big pink elephant in the room and no one is saying, "Hey there is a big pink elephant in the room."
Spin On
Kirk
-
Yes, the lack of players that can and will travel to compete is somewhat of an embarrassment. Spintop players worldwide, if you count 11 years old kids and include wooden tops, I bet there are more than yo-yo players. Professional players also, there are likely more toppers than yo-yoers, if you take into account that Cometa alone has about 70 demonstrators in its payroll (as I was told by the owner).
Logically, it would not make sense to have more than one world contest, but that is what seems to going to happen, both because of politics and because very few (if any) of the players interested in the title have the option of playing in either continent.
I guess we are somewhat operating under the premise, "if we build it they will come". Now, to put things in perspective, the yo-yo world contest started as half-a-dozen people doing their thing on the corner of a juggling festival.
-
Things would be so much simpler if there were no physical World Contest, only a virtual one, and all contests would have regional titles (like "US Open" instead of "Worlds"). All we would need then is the framework for the virtual contest.
(Just sharing some thoughts - Please indulge me a bit.)
My immediate impression on reading the suggestion was...
Submitted videos would be a rather sterile format lacking necessary elements to help the sport expand.
A Virtual Framework would leave a lot to be desired.
1. No gathering of people with a common interest, love and excitement.
2. No pressure of performing in front of a live audience.
3. No face to face interaction among participants.
4. No audience interaction.
After giving this more thought, and after reading the words more slowly - I'm thinking...
There might be something workable in that suggestion.
Physical Regionals:
Regional's would be Physical - giving people with a common interest, love and excitement a chance to be together locally
to exchange ideas, techniques etc. The competitors are on stage locally maintaining the standard of performing under pressure
in front of a live audience.
All entrants in the Regional contest are recorded in real-time.
The recording of the winning performance at a Regional is sent to a Central governing body.
The Central governing body collects the videos from all Regions participating.
The Central governing body is responsible for assembling a group of Globally acceptable "Judges".
The Virtual Worlds:
The Judges review each qualified Regional video to determine the "World Champion".
Thoughts people?
What's your Spin on it?
We should bounce the possibility around a bit in the Forum to see if we could come up with workable Framework.
-
Great thoughts , Larry.
Some things to be sure are thought out and discussed:
"Regions" National or smaller? All US players do not make it to Chico.
Three minute freestyles or three one minute throws or something else?
I like that the videos are from a contest with an audience.
Just the winner? Or depending on the number of regions; 1st, 2nd, 3rd?
Now I need to read more slowly to see what else comes to mind.
-
I think that was exactly what Neff was proposing: real regional contests and a virtual unified title.
I would say that at this stage we would have to work with any contest out there that meets certain requirements, no matter if it is billed as regional, national or global. Possible contests this year would be Worlds (Orlando), US Nats, Czech Nats, Southern Morovia Regionals, and the European Contest. But some of those had three throws instead of three minutes freestyle, so I am not sure if they can be combined somehow.
-
I think that was exactly what Neff was proposing
Right ta0.
You are quite the clairvoyant.
-
ok good inputs !!
now lets write down a format that any regional contest could adopt/use
i don't care too much for the ultimate virtual title
anything digitalized loses momentum : the "it" in JK's on the road
(thanx Larry for reminding us that in your introduction..)
let's help regional contest by sending them material, that's the first duty to a future spintop association
we still have
ex-ineptt still has $2283.69 in its coffers. Of this remaining money, Larry has $1,322.03 and I have $961.66.
we can afford it
almost time for new raffle !!! ;D ;D
jim
-
Who wants to organize a new contest next year? It seems to me that the US Midwest is prime location for one . . . We can help . . .
-
More thoughts.
The virtual world title we are hypothesizing would not replace the spintop world champion produced at "yo-yo worlds", whatever that evolves into. It should have a name that aids that separation... I like Mark Hayward's title for the "Ultimate Battletop Championship of the Universe" maybe too over the top, I don't know.
The qualifying requirements could be as simple or complex as they need to be.
Qualification videos should be filmed at a "recognized" contest. Some definition needed there.
Limited editing on the submitted videos, probably should be from a single camera and no cuts during the performance.
Determine the format; 3 minute freestyles or best throw of three with a two minute limit...
more to say but a short lunch.
Some friends and I are working on combining the Kansas, Missouri, Iowa and Nebraska YoYo contests for next year just FYI
-
The more I read the better I feel about the way that the spintop community is going, and at the same time I am saddened that I can't contribute as much as I want. I am still waiting for the day that I will suddenly have the time to more actively pursue my spintop interests. I will keep my opinions about the future of spintop and yo-yo contests to myself, but I will say that I have already seen some great ideas in this thread.
-
I have been sitting here wondering about the "Worlds" situation for a while now.
Unfortunately I don't speak or read other languages, Google and Bing translate is what I turn to.
But anyway, I'm wondering just how many Spin Top Forums exist Globally?
I know that 2 Forums exist outside of this one, both in Spain; Pulp's Forum and Javier's Forum.
ta0, Mike I am thinking that you both are members of those sites, yes?
What is the general feel of "The Future of the World's" in those Forums?
Is there any discussion of this topic on those sites?
Are there any thoughts expressed out there which review concerns and offer some thoughts for future direction?
-
IBut anyway, I'm wondering just how many Spin Top Forums exist Globally?
I know that 2 Forums exist outside of this one, both in Spain; Pulp's Forum and Javier's Forum.
If posts for feedback will be made on other forums the Italian forum should be added to the list:
Italian spintop forum link = http://www.asyoyo.it/forum/71-spintop-related/ (http://www.asyoyo.it/forum/71-spintop-related/)
Pulp's Spanish forum link = http://www.pulpowsky.com/foro/ (http://www.pulpowsky.com/foro/)
Javier's (Trompos Space) Spanish forum link = http://www.saturnotruco.com/foro/ (http://www.saturnotruco.com/foro/)
Yoyo Expert's English (USA) forum link = http://yoyoexpert.com/forums/index.php?board=18.0 (http://yoyoexpert.com/forums/index.php?board=18.0)
-
Thanks John.
I haven't seen any chatter about "The Worlds" in the Spin Top section of the YoYoeXpert site.
(I've been a member there since it first started.)
I haven't checked the Spin Top section of the Italian yoyo forum.
Just thinking that it might be a good topic for the Spin Top section Moderators on those sites to introduce.
-
Very thorough, johnm. I guess I have heard a bit about these other forums but never really thought about what discussion is going on there. Larry D....I am only a member here and Pulp's site. I am like you in that I cannot survive on the Spanish site without Google translate.
With all these other forums going I guess I have some other places to look around on my day off!