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[jim in paris]

ah ah dont worry ortwin ,if you re casual player and not a serious player(according to the senseï)
 what counts is that you are an active player 

not like many "serious players" who have totally disappeared(....)
 to quote a few with no offence
CN
JM
J-R
PxL
etc

keep spinning and have fun

jim

[ortwin]

...

keep spinning and have fun
...

 
Sure, having fun is the only or at least the main goal here!
I don't care too much if anybody calls me a serious player a casual player or a beginner.
My plan is to be able to perform the tricks on my list with a success rate larger than say about 50%.
A critical stage will be the phase when I  will have done all the tricks on my list once: Can I keep up the motivation to practice so that I can really "dominate" all those tricks?
Regeneration I do not only want to learn because it is "another level" but I have the impression that with a top like the fixed tip wooden one from Rocco, there are not THAT many things you can do with it without regeneration. Am I wrong? (Probably I am.)

[ta0]

ah ah dont worry ortwin ,if you re casual player and not a serious player(according to the senseï)
 what counts is that you are an active player 

I'm sorry, "casual" and "serious" were probably not good descriptors. Players on both levels can be very committed and at the same time have fun and not be at all "serious". 
But it's a different relationship with the top if you play without regeneration compared to regenerating.

A critical stage will be the phase when I  will have done all the tricks on my list once: Can keep up the motivation to practice so that I can really "dominate" all those tricks?
Regeneration I do not only want to learn because it is "another level" but I have the impression that with a top like the fixed tip wooden one from Rocco, there are not THAT many things you can do with it without regeneration. Am I wrong? (Probably I am.)

You won't be able to claim that you regenerated just once 
Although now Colombians have incorporated regenerations to their arsenal with their large wooden tops, traditional play has a lot of tricks that should be possible with your Rocco top.

[ortwin]

...
You won't be able to claim that you regenerated just once   
...

So it would be something like 50 repetitions followed by an armwalker or such  to be able to claim the first regeneration?
Maybe it still is a good thing to have the regeneration as a goal. In the wake of getting there the stability of the other tricks on my list (and maybe additional ones also) should improve "almost" automatically.
But  I will not start on regeneration like tomorrow, I still need a corkscrew and a short circuit before that. You can already suggest though which type of regeneration to start with.

[ortwin]

Congrats on wirewalker! Once you dominate it, Short Circuit will be no problem.
...

No, I certainly do not "dominate" the wirewalker yet, still I just did my first clean Short Circuit (with a "Short Circuit" top).

[ta0]

No, I certainly do not "dominate" the wirewalker yet, still I just did my first clean Short Circuit (with a "Short Circuit" top).

Congratulations!!! That is a nice trick.
But perhaps the next trick on your list is even more of a crowd-pleaser: Corkscrew!

[ortwin]

..... the next trick on your list is even more of a crowd-pleaser: Corkscrew!

You are right, Corkscrew was the next trick on my list. But here in my self isolation (Covid) I can only pratice with plastic tip tops and the only two of those that I own right now are fixed tip - so not really the beginners choice for a corkscrew.
For that reason and a few others I changed expanded my goals list once more.
I edited the post where I have the list.
This is the edit:

...

Edit on April 21st 2022: Another update and extension on my goal list. This should all be tricks for a fixed tip top, right?

• Around the world    (because it looks easy once the trapeze is solid)
• Cable car   (because it looks so cool)
• Hop the fence   (for completeness)
• Lasso   (this seems like the opener to yet another category of tricks)
• Whip   (this seems like the opener to yet even t another category of tricks)

  As regeneration I consider at least one of the following: Roller Coaster, Drumbeat, Orbits, Barrel rolls. Depending on what feels most effective and at the same time doable for me.
If I am not mistaken, this list is now the same as this one.  In addition to the Neff list, this one also has the "pole dancer" that ta0 recommended.

This introduction was necessary  I felt before I want to brag that I just managed the "cable car" for the first time.
The top I used to do it was the Bearing King knock off Ludo gave to me. It used to be a bearing top of course, but the tip broke and recently I was able to make it a fixed tip top using the plastic tip that broke off the bearing version of the "short circuit". - confusing but not that interesting a story, never mind.

[ta0]

That's a very solid expanded list.

Cable Car is a great trick. Congratulations on succeeding!
Fun fact: in the US we first learned about this trick around 2006 by watching a video from Colombia with large trompos. It's called Teleférico over there (this refers to those gondolas that go up a mountain, not the San Francisco-style cable cars).

Although Around-the-World is not difficult, it's probably not a trick to learn indoors, as at the beginning the top will likely fly away . . .

Hop the Fence is a good beginner trick.

Yes, Lasso and Whip open new branches of tricks.

Whip was a clear contribution of the US spintop scene. Neither Mexican or Japanese did this trick. Colombian had a different type of whip, that winds the string around the tip (e.g. La Vicentina), but not a whip that catches the top inside the string loop. I  believe Felix Avellaneda invented the trick around 2001 (adapted from yo-yos).

Lasso is a precondition to the Roller Coaster regen, which is the most popular regeneration trick. Barrel Rolls is not very powerful to regen but it's easy to achieve some regeneration after you figure out the start and the movement. Drumbeat used to be the 2nd or 3rd regeneration to learn but now is not very popular. The similar Sewing Machine is easier and not very different to Roller Coaster. I wouldn't recommend Orbits as achieving regeneration can be quite frustrating. On the other hand, I like Half Right Orbits as they generate better and are showy.

Good luck with your progress towards spin mastery!

[ortwin]

That's a very solid expanded list.

Cable Car is a great trick. Congratulations on succeeding!
...

Thank you for your continued supportiveness and your helpful tips ta0 !
Sure there must be something to that list if it is the one by Chris Neff.


Also the background information you are giving like when which trick was developed by whom is very interesting.
But it leaves me with an insecure feeling about the picture I have about the history of the sport. Maybe there is already a book about it or maybe you are in the process of writing one. The easiest way would be we meet and talk about it.
I mean all those tricks with a fixed tip could be ancient in principle but you mention for quite a few dates of after 2000 . What does "traditional" mean exactly in a contest?
How do the Spanish and Italians factor in there? Are they less important in the development of the sport as the Mexicans, Colombians, US Americans and Japonese?
For sure I could find answers to some of my questions just searching online, but I would prefer meeting you guys in Cremona. I did not yet totally give up going there.

[ta0]

I mean all those tricks with a fixed tip could be ancient in principle but you mention for quite a few dates of after 2000 . What does "traditional" mean exactly in a contest?
How do the Spanish and Italians factor in there? Are they less important in the development of the sport as the Mexicans, Colombians, US Americans and Japonese?

There are tricks that are 100's of years old. For example, the Kyukugoma styte tricks are 300 years old, at least. Even Germans were probably doing boomerangs in the 1800's (as the Dutch were). The earliest documentation I know of regeneration tricks is from 1905 in Chicago. But there was an explosion of the variety of tricks starting in the 1990s and picking up speed in the 2000s, in the US, Mexico, Colombia and Japan.

For sure I could find answers to some of my questions just searching online, but I would prefer meeting you guys in Cremona. I did not yet totally give up going there.

Not easy to find those answers online (specially if you don't come back to this site  ) or anywhere.
I really hope you can make it to Cremona. I found out that Friday, Saturday and Sunday are the days when the advanced players will be there.

[ortwin]

A little video with the best I can do so far with the wooden fixed tip top from Rocco.

[ta0]

That's very good, Ortwin! Actually, at Cremona, Rocco and Emma were trying to learn the first trick you do there (Short Circuit). A top with a narrower tip may help with the wire walker as it will walk slower.

[ortwin]

That's very good, Ortwin! ...

Thank you very much ta0!

... Actually, at Cremona, Rocco and Emma were trying to learn the first trick you do there (Short Circuit). ...

Sorry ta0, what kind of joke is this supposed to be? Rocco and Emma are only learning the "Short Circuit"  trick? Is this a misunderstanding? For me it is easier then the wire walker.


 

[ta0]

Sorry ta0, what kind of joke is this supposed to be? Rocco and Emma are only learning the "Short Circuit"  trick? Is this a misunderstanding? For me it is easier then the wire walker.

It's more a small top trick and Rocco mostly uses heavy wooden tops, so it was not a priority for him. He asked me how to set it up and Emma joined as he also hadn't tried it yet.

By definition, it's more difficult than wire walker: it's a wire walker plus a 180 degree switchback around the finger! 
By the way, US players learned this trick from the Mexicans, around 2006 or 2007, shortly after learning cable car from the Colombians. I recall thinking how lame looked the double wire walker that we were using in trick ladders at the time compared to these tricks.

[ortwin]

...
By definition, it's more difficult than wire walker: it's a wire walker plus a 180 degree switchback around the finger! 
....

So much for the definition. I think my problem with the wire walker are mainly the under developed catching skills of my non throw hand:
If I catch the boomerang with my throw hand the wire walker travels to the "non dominant" hand and that one of mine is still having problems serving as landing platform for a top that does not spin very fast any more. That problem is avoided with the "short circuit" and that is why I first change the top to the non throw hand in the video above before I do the successful wire walker. At the end of the video I fail in an attempt to do it the other way around.
By the way, I am having the same issue if I am trying to do the wire walker with the smaller fixed tip plastic tops  that I have.