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Author Topic: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?  (Read 1031 times)

Iacopo

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The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« on: October 29, 2021, 08:55:16 AM »


I found a new way to detect the heavy side in an unbalanced spinning top:

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ta0

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2021, 09:09:01 AM »

Fluorescent painting! Great idea!

The only problem I see is that the glow sticker adds some mass that has to be placed uniformly around the top
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ortwin

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2021, 09:13:37 AM »

Great idea Iacopo! Surely this method will have its application in certain situations. Maybe instead of the glow sticker  you can find a special paint with the effect that can be applied to a part of the stem?
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Iacopo

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2021, 10:11:57 AM »

This was just a quick experiment.  The method turned out to be easier than the paint and brush, and more practical.
By tilting the UV laser beam more vertically, I can detect the heavy side even when the wobble has very little amplitude.
Another advantage is that the laser doesn't touch the top and lets it spin undisturbed, so there is a bit more precision.

I will think how to implement this method in my future tops. Making a fluorescent stem is a possibility.
Maybe I will make fluorescent tapered cylinders to be inserted in the upper part of the stems when the tops have to be balanced.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 10:22:41 AM by Iacopo »
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ortwin

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2021, 11:15:11 AM »

Iacopo, did you never seriously get into the laser balancing method with the reflection from the flywheel (Quark top style)? Especially with your shiny flywheels that you make? You would only have to make sure a few millimeters on the upper side are flat. Also with your lathe you could check some things while the top is still on the lathe.

Instead of brush and paint I tried a black marker on my brass flywheel. I rubbed the marks away with alcohol. Over all I did not find it very useful for in my case.

Actually I am not completely happy with any I tried so far for balancing. Another possibility that I only read of and never tried myself, comes from that book of experiments  with the lecture gyroscope: a small disk is attached just above the stem. (in parallel to the flywheel) The disk has sectors of different colours, say red, yellow, green and blue. The sectors meet exactly in the center, the intended spin axis. If the top is now spun, you will probably observe that at the center of the disk a certain colour of the four colours present will be visible. Now you know that the actual spin axis does not go through the center, but through the sector of that color. If the color is changing during the experiment due to nutation you can learn something about that nutation from the order the different colors appear, but I forget exactly what that was, need to look it up again.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2021, 11:25:50 AM »

Great idea, Iacopo!

I bet you can find small phosphorescent* rings that will just slip on and off your tapered stems as needed. Can't think of a suitable LEGO part at the moment. Maybe in the plastic parts used to make DIY bracelets and necklaces for kids. Or for use in other crafts.

I've been known to take a blacklight flashlight to big craft stores to see what glows.

* In the blacklight realm, fluorescent things emit visible light only when the UV light is applied. Phosphorescent things continue to glow for a while after the UV source is removed.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 11:28:15 AM by Jeremy McCreary »
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ta0

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2021, 11:57:10 AM »

Another possibility that I only read of and never tried myself, comes from that book of experiments  with the lecture gyroscope: a small disk is attached just above the stem. (in parallel to the flywheel) The disk has sectors of different colours, say red, yellow, green and blue. The sectors meet exactly in the center, the intended spin axis. If the top is now spun, you will probably observe that at the center of the disk a certain colour of the four colours present will be visible. Now you know that the actual spin axis does not go through the center, but through the sector of that color. If the color is changing during the experiment due to nutation you can learn something about that nutation from the order the different colors appear, but I forget exactly what that was, need to look it up again.
This is what Maxwell described in his famous top paper. By looking at the order the colors appear you can follow the movement of the actual axis of instantaneous rotation. I have seen this with my Maxwell top. I need to get back to finishing the experiments with it, but so many projects . . .
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2021, 12:31:22 PM »

ta0, I've also used that method with a stem-mounted disk carrying 3 evenly spaced fluorescent orange, green, and blue dots.

When balance is perfect, the 3 colors overlap perfectly and mix to white throughout the ring of light they form under blacklight at speed. Otherwise, the ring of light will develop thin rims of complementary colors on the inside and outside with white in between.

If the outer rim is, say, pure blue, you know that the blue dot is close to 0° or 180° from the heavy side. A simple test determines which phase angle applies in that particular top.

You can't assume 0° phase in my tops.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 12:43:40 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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Iacopo

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2021, 01:50:45 PM »

Iacopo, did you never seriously get into the laser balancing method with the reflection from the flywheel (Quark top style)? Especially with your shiny flywheels that you make? You would only have to make sure a few millimeters on the upper side are flat. Also with your lathe you could check some things while the top is still on the lathe.

Yes, I did, it was Alan Adler who explained me how to do it exactly.  I built my top Nr. 22 for to be balanced in that way, with a flat, mirror polished area on top of the flywheel.  The method works, but I preferred the paint and brush, so I didn't make any other tops in that way, (even if the upper parts of my flywheels are polished, they are not flat, but rounded, and they cannot be used with that technique).  I don't like to copy the ideas of the others, when they are so particular and characteristic.  Also I was used to the paint and brush which work very well for me, and I didn't really feel the necessity to make things otherwise.   

Instead of brush and paint I tried a black marker on my brass flywheel. I rubbed the marks away with alcohol. Over all I did not find it very useful for in my case.

Maybe one reason that the brush and paint work well for me is that my tops, having spiked tips and tiny bases, are steady, do not walk on the spinning surface while spinning, and this makes this technique easier.  Also, by the time, I improved the technique: for example, I cut nearly all the bristles away from my brush, leaving only three of them in place.  The amount of paint on the bristles and the amount of the water in the paint are important too.  The aim is to try not to deviate the movement of the top while the brush is in contact with the stem, or the mark position will be less accurate.   

The disk has sectors of different colours, say red, yellow, green and blue.

When I started making tops, I was unable to balance them, and I was so angry about it that I made a big effort to solve the problem, I really wanted a very good balance in my tops. 
In the end I found how to do it and even made two videos about how to balance tops.

I also tried with the coloured sectors, in various ways, long time ago.
I tried the disk with the colours like in the Maxwell top.
I tried to paint the stem with vertical strips of different colours, then a grazing light illuminating a tiny side of the stem when the stem was tilted towards it, made evident the direction of the leaning.
I still have the painted sectors in one of my old tops, for one of those my experiments.
But all these techniques with the coloured sectors were not accurate, relatively to the paint and brush technique, so I stopped experimenting with them.
 
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Iacopo

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2021, 02:09:30 PM »

I bet you can find small phosphorescent* rings

I found phosphorescent/transparent acrylic rods, I already ordered one.
I can cut them in pieces and make tapered holes to fit exactly the stems.
This is an easy way to make these parts, I hope it will work well.

You can't assume 0° phase in my tops.


My top in the video too has not exactly a 0° phase.

I am waiting for the material for to make three tops, which I will use for some experiments about "whirling".
The next week, I hope. 
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Iacopo

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2021, 06:14:35 PM »

An update about my experiment on whirling:
the experiment was successful.  Today, for the first time, I had clear evidence of RESONANCE in a top.
I will start a thread explaining the experiment, and I will continue exploring the issue with different tops and showing the results.
I need time, (and I have little of it in this period), I couldn't perform yet another, preliminary experiment, which helps understanding, also I am still waiting for some ordered materials, but the next week probably I will start this thread.
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Bill Wells

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2021, 01:30:43 AM »

I found a new way to detect the heavy side in an unbalanced spinning top:

Just to add a question or perspective. I used the paint touch technique, on the stem, to find imbalance in a massive spinning top. I concluded that the paint mark detected the light side of the top. What are your thoughts?
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Bill Wells

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2021, 01:43:34 AM »

Instead of brush and paint I tried a black marker on my brass flywheel. I rubbed the marks away with alcohol.
Exactly what I do, Ortwin. But usually mark on the stem. Initially, I understood the mark indicated the heavy side of the top.  Now I believe it indicates the light side. Do not mean to argue with success, but I would like to discuss.
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Iacopo

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Re: The brush and paint technique going to retire ?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2021, 03:18:36 AM »

I concluded that the paint mark detected the light side of the top. What are your thoughts?

This is possible.  Some tops get the paint marks on the heavy side, some others on the light side.
It depends on the design and proportions of the tops.
Trying to balance the top adding some weight here or there should reveal what kind of top is the your.
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