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Author Topic: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops  (Read 3679 times)

Jan-Pieter

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Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« on: June 02, 2019, 08:25:43 AM »

Two years ago I wanted to make a few tops for my niece's 3rd birthday. I don't have a lathe so I used a combination of a scrollsaw, bench sander and drill press. I bought the 6mm dowels from a hobby store. I should have made one or more for myself because I probably liked it more than my niece :)






My niece was coming over 2 months ago and I decided to make a small top. I used a 2mm silver steel rod I had laying around, cut a piece off and glued a disc on it. I shaped it with a dremel and a bench sander. I thought it was quite fun and made a few more. I've now started finishing the tops with CA glue. It's not perfect yet but it will get better. Once the whole batch is finished I'll start using 2mm stainless steel rods, because I noticed my other silver steel rods had a bit of rusting.





« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 01:19:57 PM by Jan-Pieter »
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Renee

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Re: Wooden tops
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2019, 08:56:50 AM »

Those look great.  What are the dimensions of the wood disk?
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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Wooden tops
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2019, 09:17:07 AM »

Thanks. The acacia and wenge discs are 50mm, the walnut disc is 43mm. The small ones are all 25mm except for the maple one which is 15mm. If I make another that small I would insert a piece of metal rod in the center, because it can't spin for long.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 09:19:10 AM by Jan-Pieter »
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Wooden tops
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2019, 02:53:04 PM »

Thanks. The acacia and wenge discs are 50mm, the walnut disc is 43mm. The small ones are all 25mm except for the maple one which is 15mm. If I make another that small I would insert a piece of metal rod in the center, because it can't spin for long.

Welcome, Jan-Pieter! Lack of a lathe clearly didn't get in your way. The disk-on-cone design is simple but elegant. The 3rd from the top is my favorite. Like the string-pull starter as well. From the woods you mentioned, I gather that you do a lot of non-lathe woodworking.

Some thoughts on the smallest top's short spin time. Turns out that the correlation between spin time and overall size or weight is surprisingly weak, so your smallest top need not be the first to fall. The following applies to tops of all sizes.

Spin time is of course just the time it takes to spin down from release speed to "critical speed" under the influence of air and tip resistance. Below critical speed, the top's no longer stable against gravity and hence falls at the slightest provocation. Thus, your opportunities to improve spin time generally fall into 4 main categories. Most of these are pretty obvious, but the details might not be.

1. Increase release speed. Your starter certainly addresses this one but may be less effective with your smallest tops. When twirling by hand, practice helps a lot, too.

But also experiment with stem diameter and knurling, as these determine how efficiently energy transfers from your fingers to the top. Generally, the smaller the top's rotational inertia, the thinner the stem. But only to a point, as the stem still has to be thick enough to keep your fingers from rubbing during the twirl. That happens to me below about 3 mm diameter.

2. Reduce critical speed. Mass distribution is the key here, and "down and out" is the ideal when it comes to spin time. Practically speaking, the lower to the ground, or the farther from the spin axis the top carries its mass, the lower the critical speed.

The "out" part of "down and out" also increases the top's ability to resist the combined effect of air and tip resistance. If you try another 15 g top, consider a thinner disk with a larger radius and mount it closer to the ground. Or redistribute mass to the periphery by hollowing out the disk near the stem and building up the rim.

3. Reduce spin decay rate by reducing tip resistance. Tip resistance generally increases with weight and contact surface area but varies little with speed. And friction isn't the only process involved. Hard, polished, rounded tips with a small radius of curvature tend to give the longest spins. But not too sharp, lest the tip dig in or deform. You're already on the right track here.

Of course, the materials in contact at the tip are also important. A wooden tip on a hard table might benefit from a hard, low-friction coating.

4. Reduce spin decay rate by reducing air resistance. Air resistance generally contributes far more to spin decay than tip resistance. But the latter grows in relative importance as the top approaches critical speed, so both are worth addressing. Polished streamlined top surfaces are the ideal when it comes to spin time. Since your tops are already pretty aerodynamic, doubt that you'll find much more spin time here. But rounded or beveled disk edges might help.

All that said, it's easy to get hung up on spin time to the detriment of play value and visual design. Measures that maximize spin time also tend to suppress precession, travel, and other behaviors that make a top fun to play with. To see what I mean, experiment with different disk-tip distances without changing the disk itself.

Sacrificing some spin time to an interesting visual design or behavior has a long, rich, and fruitful history in top-making.


« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 04:56:10 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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Art is how we decorate space, music is how we decorate time ... and with spinning tops, we decorate both.
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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #4 on: June 02, 2019, 05:38:43 PM »

Thanks Jeremy, those tips will help with future tops :)

So yeah, the center steel insert idea is out. I should have known better. Perhaps I'll experiment with steel inserts towards the edge and light wood center inserts. I've been thinking of a way to increase the stem. I could make and finish a wooden cylinder or lid seperately and glue that upon a finished top. It would remove the ability to resharpen the tips though, then again well sanded tips should last long enough.

I gave the red one to my niece but the weights of the other small ones are actually 1.5g, 3.5g and 4.2g. If I'll make another lightweight I'll go thinner and wider for sure. The tiny one spins for 26s while the two bigger ones spin for about 70-90s.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2019, 05:57:18 PM »

Perhaps I'll experiment with steel inserts towards the edge and light wood center inserts.

Iacopo's the master of this metal-around-wood approach -- see, for example, http://www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/topic,5716.0.html .

I've been thinking of a way to increase the stem...

For experimentation purposes, at least, you can wrap the stem with varying lengths of tape. I think Iacopo came up with that. Might also improve grip.

A simple 1.9 g LEGO top that stays up around 30 sec...





The density of LEGO's ABS plastic is ~5% greater than that of water -- hence, above that of some woods and below that of others.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 06:03:58 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 07:11:23 PM »

Actually I subscribed to Iacopo's YouTube channel 2 years ago (to BilletSpin as well).

I tried the tape idea with some electrical tape. I didn't improve the spin time but actually made it worse, too squishy to get a good grip on it to make it turn faster. After removing the tape the sticky stems did improve spin time though, from 26s to 32s on the tiny one and a 20s improvement on a bigger one. So yeah, a better grip should work nicely for these.
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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 06:27:15 AM »

I finished three more of the tops I made before, lacewood, maple/walnut and pau amarello. For the maple/walnut top I made sure to sand both parts level before I glued them together, however the drill bit I used went in at an angle. Since I plan to give most away I just tried to salvage it anyway. I've since bought a quality 2mm wood drill bit. I sanded the CA glue in between applying layers on the yellow top but didn't remove the glue dust. That was a mistake. I tried to sand it away but apparently it's still visible under studio lights.











Last two unfinished tops left have woods I've shown already. I'll be doing some other projects first but next time I'll probably try to add 4mm knobs on the spindles. I like the look of the recessed lego top, I may get one or more end mills to experiment with recessing.
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Iacopo

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2019, 03:05:52 PM »

For experimentation purposes, at least, you can wrap the stem with varying lengths of tape. I think Iacopo came up with that.

This is a very simple and fast method to experiment with different diameters of the stem..
It wasn't a my idea.  But I would say it's good.  It could be used a tape with some grip for the fingers, maybe cloth tape.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 03:17:56 PM by Iacopo »
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Iacopo

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2019, 03:16:26 PM »

It would remove the ability to resharpen the tips though, then again well sanded tips should last long enough.
..the other small ones are actually 1.5g, 3.5g and 4.2g.

Nice tops, Jan-Pieter !  If you had a lathe, I bet you would make very beautiful ones !

I think that with so light tops, if you use hss tips for them, you will never need to resharpen them, (unless dented tip), because wear is really very low.
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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2019, 07:01:28 AM »

Thanks Iacopo. I did look at hhs rods or drill bit blanks, but I think they weren't hardened. I could also get cheap hss drill bits and cut off the twisted parts.

An easy way to add knobs would be to glue on brass bushings. Then the tips could still be sharpened either by making the bushings removable using hotglue or by being careful. Rubber knobs should work too but I haven't looked for them yet.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2019, 11:09:15 AM »

...next time I'll probably try to add 4mm knobs on the spindles.

Personally, I have a hard time twirling stems that widen upward at any point along the length that my fingers actually contact during the twirl. I think it interferes with their upward movement as they leave the stem to release the top.

Your fingers may feel differently about it, but mine much prefer either a constant-width stem or one that slowly narrows upward.



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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2019, 06:39:56 AM »

Good point, Jeremy. I hadn't considered yet how much length I need the knob to have. Since these are my only tops I don't really know. The current stems are 12-14mm and I might need a minimum of 10-12mm to twirl them properly. I've now find some stainless steel tubes with an id of 2mm and od of 3 and 4mm. That would allow me to experiment with knob lengths and shape as well since I could turn it in my drill before I cut off a piece :)
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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2019, 08:12:35 PM »

It's been a while but I did buy some stainless steel capillary tubes with an inner diameter of 2mm and an outer diameter of 3mm. I cut off a 9.5mm piece, rounded the ends and widened the hole a bit with a pocket drill. I kept one end narrow so I could try it without glueing it. I spinned for maybe an hour using the small black ziricote top but the spin time was actually a few seconds shorter with the tube on. On the tiny maple top it was even worse.

Fun experiment and it looks nice but this was a fail unfortunately. I think it doesn't work because the tube is smoother than the stems and because of the added weight. I'm fine with this not working though, it means I can keep the stems simple and just play with disc designs.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2019, 10:09:10 PM »

Fun experiment and it looks nice but this was a fail unfortunately. I think it doesn't work because the tube is smoother than the stems and because of the added weight. I'm fine with this not working though, it means I can keep the stems simple and just play with disc designs.

Yes, adding weight to a top's stem will always increase its critical speed (below which it's no longer stable against gravity). To compensate, you'd need to increase the release speed (practice?), increase the disk's axial moment of inertia (AMI), or lower the top's center of mass.

The AMI of a solid uniform disk is ½ M R², where M is the disk's mass and R its radius.
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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2019, 04:38:57 PM »

Yes, but I expected the thicker stem would allow me to spin easier and faster to compensate for the added weight. What would help make them spin faster is better purchase without adding weight :)

Last week I gave another small top to my niece and a plastic mirror to spin on. She's only 5 but she did well. She's also showed me she can now use the yoke to spin the big tops with the cord. With that in mind I made another set for a friend's son who turned 5. It was a bit of a rush job because I waited till the last day to start. Still had to finish the tops this morning.



I cut an extra yoke to make another set either for myself or to give away.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 04:43:24 PM by Jan-Pieter »
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2019, 06:17:48 PM »

Yes, but I expected the thicker stem would allow me to spin easier and faster to compensate for the added weight. What would help make them spin faster is better purchase without adding weight :)

Added purchase always helps, but at 3 mm, you may still be below your optimal stem diameter for the tested tops. My fingers seem to like 4.8 mm for a wide range of AMIs. This range probably includes your AMIs.
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Jan-Pieter

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Re: Jan-Pieter's wooden tops
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2019, 08:18:55 AM »

What might still work for the little tops with their current AMIs without losing spin time is cutting the steel stems to a stub and putting a wooden stem on the stub. I'll keep that in mind for later.

While working on another pull top set I was wondering if it wouldn't be better for spin time to use a yoke with only a single guide albeit a bit thicker or tighter. Then the pull tops wouldn't need a stem as long.

Here's a new set I made just to have one around before I give it away. I was a bit rough shaping the small top and it turned a bit off centre, it doesn't work well. The big top spins rather nice considering the way I make them.





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