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Author Topic: Best Clearance...  (Read 2368 times)

Sir David

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    • Modular Spinning Top
Best Clearance...
« on: July 30, 2016, 09:37:23 AM »

Hi Guys and Girls,

I am new here but been into metal spinning tops for a while now...

I was wondering what would be the most ideal/reasonable clearance from tip to flywheel edge?

Considerations:
CG of Spinning Top
Amount of concave on spin surface
Spin technique
Other?

David.
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Modular Spinning Top by David on Kickstarter

Kirk

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Re: Best Clearance...
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2016, 08:19:37 PM »

Welcome to your forum Sir David,
I am not sure what dimensions your are asking about. Perhaps you could make upload a sketch. (A photo of the back on an envelope is fine)
As you spend more time on the forum you will find that the concept of "best" is very context dependent.  Some members focus on tops spun with fingers, some with wood turning and crafting, some on tops that can be used for tricks some on top battles.  So the best proportions will depend on your goal(s) for a particular top.
I think your will be able to get some good advice (or at least some opinions) to many specific questions.
Again, Welcome.
Kirk
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Best Clearance...
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2016, 08:51:13 PM »

Welcome aboard, David! Kirk's right about context, but I'm guessing from your sig you're interested in selling small metal finger tops.

As you probably know, the shorter the distance h from the contact point to the top's center of mass (CM), the smoother the spin, the greater the precession rate, and the lower the minimum speed for stable sleeping. All of these consequences contribute to longer spin times, and all are desirable in this context.

But there's a rub, of course. Smaller h also means less ground clearance c beneath the rotor, and that makes the top harder to twirl, as the twirler must then keep the stem that much closer to the vertical to avoid grounding the rotor prior to release.

In fact, the critical quantity to track here isn't the clearance c per se but the "grounding angle" given by

a = tan-1(c / R),

where R is the rotor radius at the level where the rotor would first strike the ground. The smaller the grounding angle a, the less wiggle room the user has during the twirl.

No matter how nice the top otherwise, customers will be frustrated by a finger top that they can't twirl with a decent success rate right out of the box.

So to determine the optimal grounding angle, what you really need is an empirical success rate vs. a curve collected from a focus group of regular folks with a range of twirling skills. If the outcome of that study results in a value of h that cuts too deeply into smoothness or spin time, then you'll have to strike a compromise somehow.

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Art is how we decorate space, music is how we decorate time ... and with spinning tops, we decorate both.
—after Jean-Michel Basquiat, 1960-1988

Everything in the world is strange and marvelous to well-open eyes.
—Jose Ortega y Gasset, 1883-1955

Sir David

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Re: Best Clearance...
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2016, 11:33:03 AM »

Thank you Kirk and Jeremy,

My tops have a clearance of between 3mm and 5mm, so beginners can start off with 5mm and then as they improve their spin technique they can lower the CM.

"So to determine the optimal grounding angle, what you really need is an empirical success rate vs. a curve collected from a focus group of regular folks with a range of twirling skills. If the outcome of that study results in a value of h that cuts too deeply into smoothness or spin time, then you'll have to strike a compromise somehow."

That is why I think that my modular tops are such a useful tool, they can help determine the users ideal grip size, flywheel weight, rotor clearance...

Can anyone here think of any other features that I could/should build into my modular spinning top design?
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Best Clearance...
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2016, 04:24:26 PM »

Can anyone here think of any other features that I could/should build into my modular spinning top design?

Kirk made many good points in his recent post on the pocket tops thread. I'll add a few more from my perspective as a builder of modular LEGO finger tops. Thousands of visitors have seen and twirled my tops at LEGO shows. The tops stir a great deal of interest and generate many comments.

First, lack of public interest in finger tops isn't the problem. People love tops, but many have forgotten about them. Having some tops spinning when visitors walk by really pulls them in. Letting them spin some tops sets the hook. Many say that they'll be pulling out their LEGO and making tops as soon as they get home. Somehow, you've got to tap into that latent enthusiasm.

What show visitors seem to like about my modular tops: (i) Variation shape, color, and size at rest. (ii) Variation in optical effects at speed. (iii) Variation in top behavior (especially WRT tendency to sleep, precess, wobble, and walk). (iv) Variation in spin time. (v) Variation in twirlability -- especially in young or unpracticed hands.

Your marketing seems to emphasize (v) without talking much about the others, but (v) seems rather low on the totem pole to most folks.

Public interest in science and math seems to be pretty scarce these days, especially in the US. But visitors at my LEGO top displays start asking science questions when they see variations in behavior unfold under their noses over a matter of 10-20 seconds. (Things that unfold over minutes are a very different story.) They want to know why Top A showed behavior X while ostensibly similar Top B did something else. If I hand them 2 tops differing only in axial moment of inertia or CM height and have them spin the two and watch the difference in behavior, they tend get the underlying concept pretty quickly, and their eyes shine.

It's hard to make eyes shine with science nowadays, but guided experience with carefully chosen tops makes it pretty easy. Perhaps your next round of videos could tap into that as well.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 05:40:32 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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Sir David

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Re: Best Clearance...
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2016, 02:54:23 PM »

Thank you Jeremy.

You give very sound advice 8)

I do not think that I will try again however, I have taken your advice on board for my future projects :)

I have a unique dice design and a packing puzzle concept which are both prototyped, just need to decide which to go with...

David.
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