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[Kirk]

With the popularity and success of the new rules format used at the worlds and elsewhere, I thought I would take a stab at formalizing them.  The changes are (I hope) based on how the worlds contest was run.

Please post comments. I will try to update the document based on my perception on consensus.

Perhaps we can wrap this up for the nationals.

---edit---
See the more up to date pdf below.

[ta0]

Good job, Kirk! Thanks for taking all that work to improve the contest.

1) I agree it is probably a good idea to specify in the rules that the judges can change the age slots.  Perhaps I would add: "to even up the number of players among brackets"  It could be criticized in the sense of "changing the rules after the fact", but in practice it is what we have been doing lately.

2) I guess the current 5 seconds on the hand vs. 3 seconds is the same as setting the speed limit 5 to 10 miles slower than what you expect people to drive.  Three seconds is closer to what we actually ask for but 5 is there so people don't just do 1 second

3) At worlds on the 2nd round we let people repeat a trick and I agree in removing the ban from the rules.

4) We have always asked Hacky Top to be from the knee but if somebody wants to do a foot bounce, which is more difficult, it should be accepted.

5) You are right, the explanation of Hop the Fence is messed up and needs to be clarified. For example:
Hop the Fence (3 reps) – 2 Pt – Throw & catch Trapeze, put both ends of string in throwing hand. Extend the index finger of the non-throwing hand in front of you pointing sidewise (this makes the fence).  Pull the string down so the top goes over the fence (the non-throwing hand can be moved upwards a small amount) and returning to Trapeze.

I liked how the format worked for worlds.  Now nationals is different. At worlds we use the main stage and there is no yo-yo competition while we are doing the top sports division. At nationals there is continuous action on the main stage and we have our own stage.  We will get more people competing if we are continuously testing as players show up.  The bad thing is that it can keep the judges busy for a long period.

[Kirk]

2) I guess the current 5 seconds on the hand vs. 3 seconds is the same as setting the speed limit 5 to 10 miles slower than what you expect people to drive.  Three seconds is closer to what we actually ask for but 5 is there so people don't just do 1 second

I remember being terrified as I practiced for the worlds. 5 seconds is forever.  Most tricks I could only get 4 sec. What a relief to find that this was enforced like the speed limit.

[Gustin Joss]

This is cool. However, if you are too advanced, Ta0 won't let you do the ladder at Nationals. 

The reasoning for this is solid. We are trying to attract more players and get more people trying tops. Nationals was really more like a fun spintops clinic for me than it was a major competition. I am fine with that format. Until we get more players, or Nationals becomes a two day event, there is just not enough time to get us on the main stage at a yoyo competition.

[Kirk]

... I liked how the format worked for worlds.  Now nationals is different. ......  We will get more people competing if we are continuously testing as players show up. ....

After thinking about this, I realized that these rules still work even if there is only one person on stage at a time.  If the nats is really more of a learning experience then the Nefformat is even better. A beginner (or a nervous shootist  ) gets 13 throws even if they miss every one. (12 if spinner and scoop are combined)
What if we changed
For large contests the judges may divide the contestants into smaller groups.
to this
The judges may divide the contestants into smaller groups or even have players compete individually.

3) At worlds on the 2nd round we let people repeat a trick and I agree in removing the ban from the rules.

And beginners can take a second or third attempt at 1 point tricks.

[Kirk]

Much better! I wonder about ...
Hop the Fence (3 reps) – 2 Pt – Throw & catch Trapeze, put both ends of string in throwing one hand. Extend the index finger of the non-throwing other hand in front of you pointing sidewise (this makes the fence).  Pull the string down so the top goes over the fence (the non-throwing "fence" hand can be moved upwards a small amount) and returning to Trapeze.

[ta0]

Much better! I wonder about ...
Hop the Fence (3 reps) – 2 Pt – Throw & catch Trapeze, put both ends of string in throwing one hand. Extend the index finger of the non-throwing other hand in front of you pointing sidewise (this makes the fence).  Pull the string down so the top goes over the fence (the non-throwing "fence" hand can be moved upwards a small amount) and returning to Trapeze.

I like your changes, Kirk.
I added some more clarification to the trick:

Hop the Fence (3 reps) – 2 Pt – Throw Trapeze, put both ends of string in one hand. Extend the index finger of the other hand in front of you pointing sidewise (this makes the fence).  Place the top on one side of the fence and pull the string down on the other side so the top goes up and over the fence (the "fence" hand can be moved upwards a small amount), returning to trapeze.

I will update the nationals website with these changes.  Thanks!

[Neff]

The intent of the format that I use in my contests (multiple contestants on stage attempting a list of tricks) is to 1) increase contestant confidence and 2) conduct a timely, watchable event.  Somebody missing 13 tricks in a row is not watchable.  Fine if it really is a clinic, but to me the National Contest is... a Contest.  Contests are meant to be attended and watched.  20 tricks and one round are all you need to determine a winner and with 5 people that will still take at least 45 minutes.  I'm sorry I just think the format as proposed is way too complicated and time consuming.  There is so much to do in one day's time at Chico.

[Gustin Joss]

The intent of the format that I use in my contests (multiple contestants on stage attempting a list of tricks) is to 1) increase contestant confidence and 2) conduct a timely, watchable event.  Somebody missing 13 tricks in a row is not watchable.  Fine if it really is a clinic, but to me the National Contest is... a Contest.  Contests are meant to be attended and watched.  20 tricks and one round are all you need to determine a winner and with 5 people that will still take at least 45 minutes.  I'm sorry I just think the format as proposed is way too complicated and time consuming.  There is so much to do in one day's time at Chico.

I like your way the best. If I ever get a chance to compete in your Ladder, I will win it. I guarantee. 

...just kidding. But seriously.

[ta0]

Obviously, if we test single players it would not be intended to be a public show (except for a mother or perhaps a friend).  That is the same as for the yo-yo ladder.  I would much rather do the simultaneous contest, IF it is possible to get enough players ready to compete at the same time on stage.  Unfortunately, we generally struggle to get a decent quantity of players, even with the "clinic" format.  But you are right, that should be the goal for a national contest.  Kirk's wording would give us the flexibility of going both ways, depending of the circumstances.

[Neff]

I see your point and will step down from my soap box.  I won't be there this year but plan to attend in the future, and I would like to help out with the ladder if it hasn't become too complicated of an event.

[Kirk]

Neff's point is a good one.
If we change
For large contests the judges may divide the contestants into smaller groups.
to
The judges may divide the contestants into smaller groups.
then we maintain the idea in the rules that this should be an event with a group on stage. In a strange circumstance (clinic format) the groups could be very small (one or 2)

The rules I propose are the best approximation I could make of how the worlds were run
I think the worlds event met Neff's goals

1) increase contestant confidence

Players were able to encourage one another while on stage and some players had much improved scores over previous events.

2) conduct a timely, watchable event.

We had 9 players. The whole thing lasted almost exactly 40 min.  Lots of folks were watching with interest. Due in no smal part to Mark's great MC skills

Ooh, bonus round!     I like

With only 2 misses allowed, round 2 went pretty quickly. Some folks (me) were able to boost their scores significantly in the bonus round. However retiring me early made the event more watchable as Eli hit trick after trick at the end.
I don't have enough experience to say if the list of 40 should be reduced or not, but it seems that having only 2 misses did a good job of shortening the time of the event.

[Neff]

Thank you for continuing this thread, I fear I was a little grumpy with my prior post.  Also thank you for the worlds report, it sounds like things went well.

[Kirk]

Here is my edited version based on comments so far.

I fear I was a little grumpy with my prior post.

No worries. While no set of rules is perfect, they should stand up to close scrutiny. Keep the comments coming.

BTW How is a decision made to make a set of rules official?

[poptop]

I will miss more than twice

[ta0]

BTW How is a decision made to make a set of rules official?

I guess they are de-facto official if they are posted on the nats (or worlds) website. Alan has been the point man for nats and myself if he cannot come. We both can now edit the website.  Personally, I am of the "follow the spirit not the letter of the law" persuasion, so I don't have a problem bending the rules if necessary 

[Kirk]

I will miss more than twice

Me too. That's why I love these rules with round 1 misses not counting against you.

[Kirk]

ta0,
Tonight I can post a msword doc if you like.
Kirk