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[Neff]

Who made the first bearing top?
Wast the Bearing King the first mass-produced top?
When did the Blizzard come out?
When did the Top Dog come out?

[ta0]

Well, I am not 100% sure, but I believe Dale invented the modern bearing top (1998?) but the YYJ Topdog bearing went on sale before the Spintastics Tornado (1999?) and the BK was third. 

Dale says that he regrets not having patented the bearing top. However, I have a true bearing tip wooden top from the 1920s or 30s (although the neck is not good for tricks).

[ta0]

I wrote to Dale and this is what he wrote back:

"The Tornado Top, our first ball bearing top came out in April of 2000. I'm sure that was before YYJ made any tops at all. I'm not sure they were in production with their yo-yos yet."

The reason I thought the Topdog had come earlier was that in the original topspinning.com (before being part of Infinite Illusions) there was a spintop review section and said that: "The Yoyojam bearing top was the first bearing top to be released."

You can still see the page using the WayBack Machine:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060705102637/http://www.topspinning.com/reviews/yyjbearing.html

Notice the price: $20 

[Neff]

Thanks ta0, I knew you would have the info.

[Neff]

To clarify, I wanted to know who was first between Spintastics, Duncan, and YYJ

[ta0]

I dug a little more using the Wayback Machine.

A yoyojam.com products page capture from February 29, 2000, does not have any tops. One from September has them, including the bearing version of the Top Dog: YYJ September 14, 2000. Jon had won Worlds a month earlier using a Top Dog, but I am not sure if it was bearing.  Unfortunately, I did not find relevant page captures between February and September. I guess Jon or Valerie should be able to tell us when they came out.

Doing the same with Duncan (yo-yo.com), the products page from March 4th of 2000 announces the Storm Series "coming this Spring to a store near you". Unfortunately, Duncan was already using all flash sites that don't capture well. 

I think it is not yet settled if YYJ or Duncan started selling bearing tops first.

Not even close to the first bearing top. I just saw a Pop's Top that was wooden with a bearing. Apparently you can say whatever you want in copy as long as YOU believe it's true.

The Pop's Top may be a bad example.  I don't have one yet, but from what I have been told the tip does not spin in spite of what the box says.  I do have several other wooden tops that do have bearing tips, but almost all are the ballpoint pen type: the bearing will let it spin longer on the hand but not on the string.  If we are talking about modern bearing tips, it's main advantage is longer spins on the string.  I do have one old top circa 1930's, I believe German, that actually has a radial ball bearing like a modern top. But even that one does not have a very nice tip for tricking.

[ta0]

Well, I wrote to Valerie [Aaron] with the question.  This was her answer:

"I'm pretty sure TopDog was second... [after the Tornado]. I'm just going by memory here as I would have to go digging through old sales records to be sure.   But I believe we introduced them at Worlds in August, then began shipping to stores in September.  That's just a guess though... "

I also suggested that she should point out to her dad that the Gates auctioned at over $100, and maybe that would get his attention.  This was her comment:

"I am all over Dale [Bell] about putting the tops back into production.  He says he thinks he has a whole box of Gates tops in the warehouse, but they don't have tips.  Tips are his issue... he's never designed one he's been completely happy with."

I believe that box of Gates was a new trial production they made a couple of years ago (yellow plastic if I recall correctly), but without tips (I think somebody said the molds are lost).  Yothomas did get one of them and I guess put his own spare tips (those Gates have the indentation for a second crown tip). 

[johnm]

I believe that box of Gates was a new trial production they made a couple of years ago (yellow plastic if I recall correctly), but without tips (I think somebody said the molds are lost).  Yothomas did get one of them and I guess put his own spare tips (those Gates have the indentation for a second crown tip).

From the Vendors at World thread in 2010



That thread identifies a lot of expectations for the future of tops:

YoYo Jam--restocking Gates with optional cap tip
Werrd-- two new tops Yikes and Didley Squat
Spintastics--restocking Quicksilver, restocking Hollowpoint
Duncan--restocking Bearing King, revised Bearing King, metal Bearing King
Crucial--Darren Kim top

Two years later, only the restocking of BKs and the combining of the Quicksilver and Hollowpoint into the Quicksilver Hybrid have been realized.

Any progress reports from any of these manufacturers?  Have most of the tops been abandoned?  Just to add to the list, what about the cast delrin top from YoYo Factory discussed here?  Also the company link in the Northspin thread is gone so I assume that chance is gone (that top was just a computer rendering anyway).

Sorry this might be kind of a thread highjack.

[Neff]

S8 continues to produce though!

I suspect these other manufacturer's are "waiting for demand" - a fairly ridiculous idea since none of them waited for yo-yo demand, they all helped create it.

[ta0]

I did a search of posts on the old Unidentified Flying Tops collectors board that was started June 29, 2000.  There is a message from July 4th by Rich who bough a Bearing King:

============================
Duncan Bearing King is out!!!!    
Posted By:       

    flying_saucer51

   Tue Jul 4, 2000 12:10 pm  |
   
I just bought a Duncan bearing king top at my
local grocery store. It comes with two extra tips,
string, a 'Steve Brown Die" and a little trick book. On
the trick book is and adress to send 3.00 for a big
duncan trick book. here is the adress:

3.00
to:Duncan Toy Co.
PO Box 5
Middlefield, OH 44062
====================

I am starting to think that the order for bearing tops was:  Tornado -> Bearing King ->  Top Dog.  Anyway, they all came out within a few months of each other.

[johnm]

S8 continues to produce though!

Absolutely! 
Sorry for the somewhat negative tone of my post.  I had intended simply to summarize and query recent and on-going prospects of new tops, not criticize or complain about any of these manufacturers or the general status of availability of tops in general.  In fact it seems that this is the best time ever to be an acrobatic top spinner with perhaps the largest number of mass producers and varieties of tops world wide.

an incomplete list in no particular order includes (not counting tip changes):
S8 -- four models
Duncan -- two models
Spintastics -- three models
Funtrix
Trompos-Space -- four models
Cometa -- models
5 Estrelles --  models
Premier -- models
Spin Fever (Brazil) -- models
Pather (Colombia) --  models

plus some others from Spain (primarily wood) and China.

[Gustin Joss]

S8 continues to produce though!

I suspect these other manufacturer's are "waiting for demand" - a fairly ridiculous idea since none of them waited for yo-yo demand, they all helped create it.

There's your answer. They don't need to push products to generate revenue anymore. The YoYo market is now pulling product through the channels. If they are making YoYo money with minimal effort, why would they try to push tops? Combine that with the steeper learning curve, and tops just aren't worth it. We need to look to non-yoyo companies, like S8, to grow the sport. Or, we could all invest some dough, buy a CNC as a co-op and let 'er rip.

[Kirk]

Or, we could all invest some dough, buy a CNC as a co-op and let 'er rip.

As a product development consultant I see lots of inventor entrepreneurs.  The best advice I have heard on the topic is this.

"Just because you have an idea, does not mean that you have a product.
Just because you have a product does not mean that you have a business."

Distribution is the key! I have seen several good products not see the light of day.
Kirk

PS Lots of maker spaces/hacker spaces are forming all over the world. Some have NC equipment.

 

[Gustin Joss]

Or, we could all invest some dough, buy a CNC as a co-op and let 'er rip.

As a product development consultant I see lots of inventor entrepreneurs.  The best advice I have heard on the topic is this.

"Just because you have an idea, does not mean that you have a product.
Just because you have a product does not mean that you have a business."

Distribution is the key! I have seen several good products not see the light of day.
Kirk

PS Lots of maker spaces/hacker spaces are forming all over the world. Some have NC equipment.

If only we knew someone who is six months away from his phd in marketing...someone who teaches distribution...

Plus, I am not looking to build a business. I just want a community machine that we can all use to make our tops. I mean, how much is an NC machine that meets our top making needs?

This guy seems perfect:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bolton-12-3-5-x-30-CNC-Metal-Lathe-Turning-Lathe-FREE-SHIPPING-3-Phase-220V-/380465635058?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D251176709785%26ps%3D54

Now we just need 23 people with 500 bucks. I will volunteer as lead makerHuman for the first year.

[kyo]

I wrote to Dale and this is what he wrote back:

"The Tornado Top, our first ball bearing top came out in April of 2000. I'm sure that was before YYJ made any tops at all. I'm not sure they were in production with their yo-yos yet."

His memory must be slipping..

Yoyojam yoyos were extremely prevalent in the community in 2000, they were already releasing super spinfaktors and special edition stuff. They had a few tops at worlds that year, including the topdog which I do believe was bearing. I also recall seeing their double-sided top, though I don't recall if that was bearing or not?

The tornado, if it was april, would have predated the yyj releases by at least a few months.. but they obviously would have been in development at the same time. I don't recall the bearing king being out yet.. I think that was slightly later as duncan would have been focused on the freehand production at the time.

Kyle

[kyo]

Any progress reports from any of these manufacturers?  Have most of the tops been abandoned?  Just to add to the list, what about the cast delrin top from YoYo Factory discussed here?  Also the company link in the Northspin thread is gone so I assume that chance is gone (that top was just a computer rendering anyway).

The Metal BK is coming... eventually. Duncan commits to doing it, then quickly gets distracted by a fast-selling yoyo of some sort and switches gears to meet those production demands. They want to make it, but their US manufacturing is limited to a single shop with apparently somewhat limited capacity.

If only we knew someone who is six months away from his phd in marketing...someone who teaches distribution...

Plus, I am not looking to build a business. I just want a community machine that we can all use to make our tops. I mean, how much is an NC machine that meets our top making needs?

This guy seems perfect:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bolton-12-3-5-x-30-CNC-Metal-Lathe-Turning-Lathe-FREE-SHIPPING-3-Phase-220V-/380465635058?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D251176709785%26ps%3D54

Now we just need 23 people with 500 bucks. I will volunteer as lead makerHuman for the first year.

I can produce tops all day long if I could sell 100 of each, but it doesn't seem to work with the current community size. There are a -lot- of machine shops out there if you want to make something.. some of them are even good. The problem is that setting up the machines takes time and money, so you have to produce enough to cover those costs.

The machines aren't 'that' expensive (relatively).. but you need shop space (expensive), huge amounts of specialized power (also expensive.. these things don't just plug into a wall), and people with the knowledge and skill to run the tools. This isn't a 1 time investment kind of thing, it's a very pricey proposition.

If you're looking for the ability to make 1-off type stuff.. you're better off investing in a small low-end machine like a Sherline CNC. They are slow and underpowered, but you could make single pieces for relatively low investment cost. They run about $2500, plug into the wall, and can sit on your workbench comfortably. You'd be limited to things like delrin or wood realistically, but that's what everybody really likes anyway. You'll still need the skill and knowledge required to machine things properly, and the ability to generate G-Code and set up the machine properly. Feel free to put it at my house

Kyle

[Neff]

Bearing King was in production before the Freehand.  HTBAP was shot in fall 2000, we had BK's but no freehands, only Wheels with bearing mods.