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[kyo]

One more thing...titanium.

Titanium tops have been talked about for years. If you can find enough people to buy 50-100 of them at several hundred dollars a piece, I would have no problem making them. A Ti yoyo sells in the $300 range.. a Ti top requires more material and more machine time due to the massive amount of material to be cut away.

Kyle

[ta0]

One more thing...titanium.

Titanium tops have been talked about for years. If you can find enough people to buy 50-100 of them at several hundred dollars a piece, I would have no problem making them. A Ti yoyo sells in the $300 range.. a Ti top requires more material and more machine time due to the massive amount of material to be cut away.

Kyle

Well, what is the advantage of titanium? Isn't it that it is relatively light for its strength? But perhaps we want weight . . . at least rim weight.  I have a Quark finger top made of Tungsten. The reasoning is that it is one of the heaviest metals and gives the top more inertia. In fact, tungsten is used in gyro rotors and fly wheels.

[Neff]

Right, but titanium sounds so much cooler than tungsten 

Lot of focus on delrin and aluminum though.  Anything machinable that is less expensive?

[kyo]

Titanium is extremely strong compared to its weight. It's actually 2x the weight of aluminum, but you need far less of it to make a strong piece.

Tungsten is a heavy, strong material but it is brittle. I wouldn't expect it to last well in a full-size-gets-beat-up top. I also assume you mean it has a tungsten ring? If it's actually made of tungsten completely, it has to either be very small (finger top) or -extremely- heavy and dangerous.

A Ti top would be extremely durable, would allow for any weight distribution imaginable, and would make super awesome sparks when it hit the concrete. (actually.. I need to make some fixed axle Ti spintop tips! they'd spark like crazy).

Delrin could be done reasonably cheap, aluminum isn't as cheap. The materials actually cost about the same, but the delrin machines at a much faster rate and requires far less machine time.

Kyle

[ta0]

My W Top Quark (hey, I am suddenly a particle physicist  ):

[poptop]

I love the fact that Ti is so strong.  Great tops take a beating.  I feel like the larger aluminium tops we've seen (HP, QS) are a bit too heavy, but I may be in the minority here.  I'm confident a lighter aluminium top can be made in similar sizes, but we would give up strength--which we could prolly live with.  For example, I've dented my YYF tops but they still play well; Spintastic metals show their scars, but I have yet to bend or break one.  It would be entirely po$$ible to make something in Ti that is as big but thinner walled and lighter than the Spintastic aluminium tops and not sacrifice strength.

That said, I suspect most folks would prefer a smaller Ti top, something closer to the STB 2.0.  This would be more realistic from a cost standpoint as well.  I think many of us would also prefer a one-piece top, but lightweight Ti caps are an interesting prospect.  Ti tips pique my interest too.

I also love the fact that, like aluminium, Ti can be anodized .  Anodized Ti stuff I've seen has a translucent-metalic, sometimes iridescent quality that really looks terrific. 

Ti definitely has a mystique; it's always seemed exotic and special to me, probally to most others as well.  I think Ti would be seen as something new and exciting for spin tops.  Anything that creates more excitement has got to be good for top spinning!

[Shootist]

Kyo
I am all for a Ti Spintop. They may be expensive but I would love to add that to my collection. Also consider making the tip for both fix and bearing play.

Mike

 

[kyo]

I love the fact that Ti is so strong.  Great tops take a beating.  I feel like the larger aluminium tops we've seen (HP, QS) are a bit too heavy, but I may be in the minority here.  I'm confident a lighter aluminium top can be made in similar sizes, but we would give up strength--which we could prolly live with.  For example, I've dented my YYF tops but they still play well; Spintastic metals show their scars, but I have yet to bend or break one.  It would be entirely po$$ible to make something in Ti that is as big but thinner walled and lighter than the Spintastic aluminium tops and not sacrifice strength.

That said, I suspect most folks would prefer a smaller Ti top, something closer to the STB 2.0.  This would be more realistic from a cost standpoint as well.  I think many of us would also prefer a one-piece top, but lightweight Ti caps are an interesting prospect.  Ti tips pique my interest too.

I also love the fact that, like aluminium, Ti can be anodized .  Anodized Ti stuff I've seen has a translucent-metalic, sometimes iridescent quality that really looks terrific. 

Ti definitely has a mystique; it's always seemed exotic and special to me, probally to most others as well.  I think Ti would be seen as something new and exciting for spin tops.  Anything that creates more excitement has got to be good for top spinning!

The metal BK is almos identical in weight to the normal BK, and it's still strong. It all comes down to design and understanding of the materials. Spintastics still does their design work in coreldraw as far as I know, there isn't a lot of calculation involved.. so it isn't surprising that they over do it a bit to ensure they don't break.

Ti looks cool in colors because it isn't anodized in the sense that aluminum is. With Al you build up an oxide layer and then dye it.. the oxide builds up dull gray and the dye fills in the holes in the oxide layer. With Ti, the metal itself is reactive so all you need to do is build an oxide layer.. as it grows thicker, the wavelengths of light refract differently and you get a color shift.. precise color is controlled with a simple voltage calculation instead of dyes/timers/agitators/etc. What this all means, is that you're actually seeing the metal change color, not the metal soak up a dye, thus it looks a lot cooler

I'll look into making some Ti tips, much easier and more cost effective than an entire Ti spintop.

Kyle

[ta0]

I would definitely get a few Titanium tips if you make them.  I´ll use them to spin on the driveway on New Year or other special occasions.  But I would not do the sparkling trick very often, as obviously if it sparks it is chewing up the tip (the sparks being incandescent bits of titanium!)

[poptop]

I like Sparks    I'd like Ti tips 

I suppose a one piece aluminium top (one piece body) is more realistic for the near future.  Seems like it would require some special tools to hollow the body--Maurizio would know all about it to be sure.

[kyo]

I like Sparks    I'd like Ti tips 

I suppose a one piece aluminium top (one piece body) is more realistic for the near future.  Seems like it would require some special tools to hollow the body--Maurizio would know all about it to be sure.

A one-piece top would be -extremely- cost prohibitive unless you deviated from the standard top design/shape. I don't see the benefit really, why pay for a -lot- of special tooling just so you can't take it apart?

Kyle

[poptop]

Bummer. Didn't realize it was way more costly.  I wonder if there is a happy medium between standard design and "hollowability".  I suspect a low and wide open crown, similar to some turned tops might allow enough room to hollow and still retain a traditional crown.  I'd prefer at least a slight crown to anchor the string during winding, but perhaps this could be moved outward to provide the extra room needed to get inside?

As for why, I suppose I would flip the question and ask why would one want a top that comes apart?  Prolly not for playability, durability or balance--some of the most important performance related stuff.  Ever since we started opening holes in the crowns ala "Diet RC" (and the creation of the S8 tops) I think we found an a better alternative for the two best reasons I can think of for having a removable cap; access to the tip assembly and ability to apply balancing material (putty) to the inner surface if necessary;  yes, only the first is a really good reason.  I've never been one to store strings inside tops, but I suppose that is another reason.  As an aside, the open crown design also opened the door to innovation of the modular double tip assembly.

There are a few benefits that come to mind for having a closed crown--the Giraboli/toothpick tricks, and "top stacking" among them.  Each however could be achieved with an insert or accessory and is a slightly separate issue.  Alas, who could forget Figaro's "Devo hat":



Most hollow custom turned tops also end up with one piece boddies.  Still, it's proper to recognize that it's easier to make these creations from several separate pieces (wood, PVC) to overcome material or equipment limitations.

One exception I can think of are the few screw together tops Eric made with threaded rings.  They look awesome, but i think aesthetics, novelty (and challenge) were the key motivations.
http://www.topspinning.com/toptalk/viewpost.php?post=10494



I enjoy the dialog about this top design stuff--it makes us think about what we like and why.  I'd like to think that top form and play influence one another allowing both to change in ways we might not predict.

[silvertop]

I used to make a few of my wood tops hollow to hold the string and button, and used a plastic cap of the type used in the auto industry to plug the holes made to spray in the rust protector stuff.  Working with something standard off the shelf is always good if it meets your design ideas because then you don't have any tooling costs, etc!

[kyo]

How does a 2 piece precision machined metal top have any disadvantage? It's easier to make, faster to make, and doesn't require special tooling.

It's certainly precise enough to not have any downside in playability, performance, or balance.. the 2 piece metal BK design spins perfectly true. The only place it adds any weight at all (and it adds almost none) is exactly where you want to have weight to begin with.

Having an open crown isn't a matter of a 1 or 2 piece top, you could easily open it up in a 2 piece design..

The reason most big wood tops are hollow is simply because they're easier to make that way. Removing wood with a hand controlled tool is easy, especially when you are set up to specifically do that.. and especially when you're making relatively large pieces with big hollow ares. There is a fair bit of extra work to make a wooden top 2 pieces, especially since you can't directly thread the wood.

Doing a top in a smaller size, with an infinitely harder material, with a tool controlled by a machine is a very different thing.

Kyle

[Neff]

Crown weight is bad.  Minimize it with lighter material if possible, if not just less of it.  Even a graham less helps.

Forget whether it is two-piece, the issue is whether it is take-apart.  So far I have not seen a production take-apart top (beside snap-caps) that did not seize (metal) or break (plastic).  If it is fabricated in two pieces but permanently fastened together with a hole in the crown for access... well that would not suck.

The reason most big wood tops are hollow is simply because they're easier to make that way.

I don't know if you meant something else here, but solid tops are much easier to make than hollow ones.  If a top is hollowed, the fabricator did it for performance not for ease of fabrication.  Hollow tops often start off in two or three major pieces, as I would assume a metal top might.

There is no disadvantage to a two-piece metal top as long at it is not take-apart, or as long as the take-apart feature actually functions.