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[Neff]

1wb will never spin as well as a plain bearing.  So, for instance, if I was to go for a 14 wrap corkscrew, i would not grab a 1wb top.

[Dizzy]

Thanks for the response, Chris.

So perhaps the 1wb may replace the standard bearing for freestyle play.  I would say that this may very well be the case, so long as the availability (and affordability maybe) of 1wb tops becomes good enough to support this change.

Here are some additional thoughts on the topic at hand that I'd like to share.

I like the idea of 2 divisions.  Let's face it: there is a steep learning-curve for achieving regenerations.  Fixed-tip tricks score heavier than bearing tricks because they're harder.  That is as it should be, and I don't expect that anyone should win a combined title without a very solid fixed routine.  I'm nowhere close to being ready to compete in either, but I'm a lot closer with bearing.  And if I felt I could compete and make a decent showing, even if 'just' in bearing, I might be willing to try to make it to an event.  I'm really looking forward to the day when I can meet you guys out there in the flesh, and I'd like to not look like a drunken chimp with a top when that day comes. 

Moving on, I agree with the consensus here that 1wb should not be in fixed at all.

I also think that as long as it remains an exotic or variant sort of top with limited commercial availability, the 1wb should not be allowed in the bearing competition either.

But as others here have pointed out, we should do our best to promote the 1wb if we want to see more of it.

Now I am woefully ignorant of competitions and I have no idea how much stage time costs or any other details that might make this idea useless, but here’s my thought.  Others here have suggested some sort of an exhibition to showcase the 1wb, and that made me wonder if perhaps we could explore the possibility of adding some sort of third division like maybe Custom tops or top-variants, or even an unlimited division where anything goes (1wb’s, stilts, monkeys with organ grinders, etc.).  And if you want a shot at the combined title, you’ve got to come up with at least something different from your other two routines to qualify.

One of the potential downsides to this idea is that in order to go for the combined title, you need 3 routines and that means extra work.  But on the other hand, it might be a great equalizer and it could allow for some really exciting 3rd round upsets.

I also think it might encourage some people to compete who otherwise would not.  If it was truly an unlimited division, we could see all kinds of crazy stuff.  With all the modders we have here, and all the customized top-variants out there people could really cut loose.  It wouldn’t even have to be the same format as the other two divisions.  Competitors could even set up demonstrations or tricks as opposed to performing choreographed routines.  Who knows?

Well, I’ve said more than a mouthful here so I’ll pass the conch shell along now.

[ta0]

Thanks a lot of the input, Dizzy.

I am buried in work until Tuesday (with a break Saturday for Jugglefest  ) but I promise we will finalize the rules for Worlds next week.

[kyo]

I know I'm not exactly a top player, but I've got a lot of experience organizing events and contest rules and such from the yoyo/diabolo side.

To me, there is no reason at all to disallow one-way bearings.. once they are commercially available. The rule should be that any -production- tech can be used.. it isn't fair when it's one person using a prototype, it's completely fair when it's available to everybody. So once one-way tops are widely available (won't be long), open it up. I would not allow one-way bearings until the point where everybody can buy them.

As for multiple titles.. yes, it makes it easier to win in theory, but not really. If you a are a great top player, you can win any or all of the categories.. what's the difference? Secondary divisions make sense here more than multiple world titles. The problem there of course, is that you don't have enough top players to warrant this.. at least not yet. I'm also not sure you'd get the stage time required until there are more competitors.. tops are the smallest event at worlds.

I would vote for 1 world title, period. If you want to break that up so that you must master all 3 top-types, that's fine.. it's not unreasonable to expect a 'world champion' to have total mastery of their tops. This is the same approach yo-yos use to take before the days of unresponsive play.. you had to loop -and- do string tricks to win.

I also like Neff's idea of how to set up the contest. 3 throws, period.. though you may need to put an upper time limit on fixed/one-way tricks as theoretically those could go forever. I'd then take the top x percentage and let them freestyle.. any top. I'd heavily weight the scoring to reward difficult/new tricks.. nobody wants to watch 400 regens. I don't see people being interested otherwise..

Just wanted to share my view on the situation

Kyle

[Neff]

I love all the comments!

[johnm]

Fixed-tip tricks score heavier than bearing tricks because they're harder. 

I've read statements similar to this before and always wondered what it really means.  With these from last year's rules

Fixed Tip Freestyle Judging:
Points are given for each completed trick or combination (repeated tricks receive reduced credit) with bonus points for difficulty and originality. Points for each different regeneration trick are given for the first five reps. Tricks done after five regeneration's get difficulty bonus points. Points may be awarded for style, theme, and performance. There are no deducts because loss of control of the top creates its own penalty.

Bearing Tip Freestyle Judging:
Points are given for each completed trick or combination (repeated tricks receive reduced credit) with bonus points for difficulty and originality. Points may be awarded for style, theme, and performance. There are no deducts because loss of control of the top creates its own penalty.


and with the understanding that certain tricks in the sports ladder require the trick to be performed with a fixed tip top for “proof” of regeneration even though the maneuver works for a number of repetitions with a bearing top (roller coaster to string and drum beats for example), how does the same maneuver score in the freestyle with a bearing tip vs. with a fixed tip?  For example, suppose two contestants perform the following sequence, one with a bearing top and the other with a fixed top.  Boomerang to hand, 5 RCS, 5 drumbeats, 3 crazy eights, unrecoverable drop.  In a single unified anything goes system, would these two combinations score the same or must the judges recognize and account for the type of top?  (I am impressed, amazed, and envious of the judges’ ability to follow the live action at contests.  Thanks to all who have judged. )

To me, there is no reason at all to disallow one-way bearings.. once they are commercially available. The rule should be that any -production- tech can be used.. it isn't fair when it's one person using a prototype, it's completely fair when it's available to everybody. So once one-way tops are widely available (won't be long), open it up. I would not allow one-way bearings until the point where everybody can buy them.

(And now some rambling thoughts but not ideas )  When we worry about being “fair” due to issues of availability, cost, etc., do we need to worry about allowing custom made ‘one of’ tops (or modded) like Alan’s, Walter’s, and Eric’s, all of whose tops I believe have been used by contest podium placers (like Tom, Jon and Chris)?  What about the use of discontinued high quality production tops like the Throwback, Top Dog, and Hollow Point which are effectively unavailable to new players?  What about a double tipped top with one fixed and one bearing tip?  What about a limit on the number of tops brought on stage--is there a concern that a newer player may have only three or four tops and loose time rewinding while a semi-sponsored player or a 10 year veteran may have a dozen or more tops?
If we really would like WORLDS to be worldly, what would happen if the awesome players from Columbia were able to attend?  Would their style of tops be disallowed because we don't have good access to them?  Would their skills be under recognized for a World Champion because they don't play bearing tops because bearing tops are not commonly available to them?
Perhaps disallowing any top/technology at anytime will take us down a very restricting path.

Now, a question for the limited few who have played with a 1wb.  During a 3 minute bearing freestyle, if you drop your only 1wb top, do you think it would be worth the time loss to rewind the 1wb and resume play with it or would you select a pre-wound normal bearing top?

[Neff]

Thank you for all your points John, you raised one that I've thought a lot about, in particular whether judges will be able to award the proper scoring "credit" where due given the all-in-one freestyle division concept.  Per your combination example, I don't think any extra points should be given for bearing or fixed, as the difficulty level does not vary much with that combo.  The example I like to use is corkscrew - definitely more difficult with a fixed tip... but it looks different too, and judges should be able to tell.  If not, an extra click is missed, no big deal, judging is not and exact science, above all just be consistent.

During a 3 minute bearing freestyle, if you drop your only 1wb top, do you think it would be worth the time loss to rewind the 1wb and resume play with it or would you select a pre-wound normal bearing top?

If I couldn't snap start it I would go on to another top.  Winding in a freestyle is a no-no IMO.  For the sake of points and also for the audience 

I've played the 1wb Guilia prototype for a while now.  The first thing I notice is the audible feedback you get, the same as ta0 noted when he played with the Duncan 1wb prototype.  He, a master regenerator, learned about which part of rollercoaster generates more spin by listening to the audible feedback.  This is huge.  This feature will dramatically reduce the time it takes for beginners to learn basic and regenerations, and the advanced Salvador-esque regenerations will be much more attainable to up and coming advanced players.

[Darren Kim]

If there was more competitors I would really like to see 3 divisions one day, simply because there are huge differences between a good fixed routine and a good bearing routine, not to mention 1wb, which incorporates both.

The reason I'd like to see more divisions is because I feel that they are different skills. In yo-yoing there are five divisions, all of which are still yo-yoing, but in drastically different forms if you had them all in one division, two handed would always score higher in difficulty, but one handed would probably get higher technical scores. This is directly related to our bearing vs fixed issue. I think that the only way to have one way bearing tops used fairly in competition would be to place them in a combined division, seeing how they are a combined top. So that's where I got the idea of 3 divisions, however seeing how adding a new division would probably not be done in spintop, I'd say that the second best option would be to have one overall division, simply because then it is all on the player's overall skills.

Although then we do come across the problem of identifying which top is being used for certain tricks during competition, because doing a corkscrew on a bearing is considerably easier than doing it on a fixed, and a wire walker wouldn't be really a wire walker on a bearing.

I have yet to throw a 1wb top so im reluctant to say anything about how it would be in freestyle, cuz I just don't know. However I think we should promote it. If one way bearing tops are perfected, that would most likely join the two spintop divisions together, or create the third that I was mentioning.

[Dizzy]

Can someone out there tell me roughly how many total spin-top competitors were at Worlds last year and how many total in yo-yo?

Also out of curiosity how many of you out there have actually spent any time with a 1wb?

[the Earl of Whirl]

Thanks for asking the important question of numbers in the top spinning competitions.  I think we had something like 5 in fixed and 7 in bearing.  That was a nice jump up in players compared to the previous few years.  I have no idea how many competed in yoyos........100?

I wish we could continue to find ways to increase the number of participants, even if that means having on stage a "first year freestyle" or a "novice freestyle" or a "one way bearing throw down for those not in freestyle" or whatever.  From what I remember we did not come close to using all our time in the last several years.

Actually, I kind of thought we were moving in the right direction with a fixed and a bearing division.  We at least had more participation.

[Dizzy]

This sort of comes down to a chicken or the egg question.

Are there so many yoyoers because there are so many yoyo styles, or are there so many yoyo styles because there are so many yoyoers?

Other thoughts:

What is the ultimate goal of the competitors and aspiring competitors here?
Do we want to increase the number of competitive top-spinners to a point where more divisions become necessary, or are we content to keep our niche hobby nice and small; a cozier, more exclusive community than that of the yoyo crowd?

On the one hand, strong growth in our numbers could mean more exciting competitions, a better and larger selection of commercially available tops, more clout in general terms.

And on the other hand, if the spintop community grew to sufficient numbers, it might serve to diminish the romance, if you will, of our rarefied hobby.  With a larger selection of production tops available would all the modders out there keep up their work?  Who can say?

I think that this is our hobby and we can determine its course, to some extent anyway.

[ta0]

What is the ultimate goal of the competitors and aspiring competitors here?

Our ultimate goal as aficionados is to make tops as popular as possible. The tweaks to the rules have always tried to attract the largest number of competitors.
Now, if you are actually competing for a title you may have reservations about making it too competitive before you win. But you still want enough contestants to make it real.  And, of course, afterward you will want it to become widely popular   

[poptop]

I think, until there are more players, we should keep it simple and have just one "open" class/division...spin whatever you want/got.  I've got no objection to holding both fixed and bearing, but 1wb doesnt really belong with either.  I think 1wb does work with an "open" concept.  I don't want to exclude 1wb, but rather find a way to encourage more of 'em.

just my $.02

[kyo]

This sort of comes down to a chicken or the egg question.

Are there so many yoyoers because there are so many yoyo styles, or are there so many yoyo styles because there are so many yoyoers?

The styles exist because of the number of players. They expanded as the contests grew and grew. There became a very real need to separate the styles for a few reasons.. one, there were a ton of people competing.. two, it was becoming extremely difficult to judge. The styles are so dissimilar that they really can't be compared side by side in any reasonable way. This really isn't the case with tops (at least not yet?) as far as I've seen.

Yoyoing is at a point now where large contests such as nationals and worlds are trying to figure out fair ways to throttle the number of people entering divisions like 1a where at worlds last year, there were close to 100 competitors. Overall you have several hundred people competing at worlds in various divisions.

Other thoughts:

What is the ultimate goal of the competitors and aspiring competitors here?
Do we want to increase the number of competitive top-spinners to a point where more divisions become necessary, or are we content to keep our niche hobby nice and small; a cozier, more exclusive community than that of the yoyo crowd?

On the one hand, strong growth in our numbers could mean more exciting competitions, a better and larger selection of commercially available tops, more clout in general terms.

And on the other hand, if the spintop community grew to sufficient numbers, it might serve to diminish the romance, if you will, of our rarefied hobby.  With a larger selection of production tops available would all the modders out there keep up their work?  Who can say?

I think that this is our hobby and we can determine its course, to some extent anyway.

To paraphrase something I have said to many yo-yo players who think it should stay small.. if you only play with tops because you feel special that not everybody does.. you're doing it for the wrong reasons and probably won't be around long enough to see it grow anyway.

If you want to continue to have tops to buy, if you want to see the hobby advance, if you want it to last longer than the relative handful of players that exist now.. you have to find a way to make it grow. I'd love to see tops grow the point where they are more than an add-on to yoyo contests.. where they are popular enough to have their own standalone contests.

[Neff]

a-men, brother kyo.

The following are more ramblings that i've probably said before...

The main argument against one open freestyle division is that, well, it has been done it that way for years, and the reasons it changed were sound.  I think that fixed and bearing play are quite distinct from each other; enough to warrant different divisions.  But when the 1wb thing gets thrown in there, things gets all muddy.  Also, the combined scores for single title causes weak freestyles, IMO. 

Ultimately, the scoring and division-ing does not matter, the winner should be the one who exhibits the finest mastery of the spin top on stage.  I want to see mastery on the stage during freestyles.  I want to see Mike Hout work that 1wb Gray for a full 3 minutes with one throw. I want so see Takeshi nail T3 and a bunch of whips on stage.  I want to see Hayward doing his super crisp crowd-pleasing combos up there.  I want to see ta0 back on stage doing... well, anything he wants.  FREEstyle.

The round-robin battle format is a whole different animal.  For instance, if a player messes up a throw it is instantaneous, and the crowd does not have to watch that player struggle to get another top, and possibly miss the next throw...

OK I'm gonna stop rambling now.