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Author Topic: World Contest Judging  (Read 406 times)

Jun

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World Contest Judging
« on: July 06, 2024, 01:20:37 AM »

First of all, I appriciate what you guys ITSA have done for the world contest.

I have some questions about the judging. I believe that almost all players who wants to win wants to know about this.

1. How many times can we get points when we do same tricks?

2. How do judges score “Performance”? What is showmanship? What is overall quality? What is interest of the perfomance?

3. What is originality and the risk of each trick in terms of technical score?

4. Does musicality get some points?
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ta0

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Re: World Contest Judging
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2024, 10:32:32 AM »

First of all, I appriciate what you guys ITSA have done for the world contest.

I have some questions about the judging. I believe that almost all players who wants to win wants to know about this.

1. How many times can we get points when we do same tricks?

2. How do judges score “Performance”? What is showmanship? What is overall quality? What is interest of the perfomance?

3. What is originality and the risk of each trick in terms of technical score?

4. Does musicality get some points?

Hi Jun

I'll answer how I score.

1. I generally score a repeated trick a maximum of 3 times. For example, a chonkake player only gets 3 points for the regular regeneration for the full routine and the same for roller-coasters or some other basic regenerations. If the trick is somewhat risky, I might score it at a lower value a few more times but probably skip some of those repetitions. If two tricks are very similar, I might also lower the points for the quasi-repetitions or skip some of them.
2. I want to see a great variety of tricks, engagement with the public, big visual tricks, musicality, trick flow with strategic stops, control, a clean routine.
3. If I have not seen the trick before, or if I know that it was recently invented but that player, I will automatically add at least one point to the technical score. The perceived risk proportionally adds to the technical score: 1, 2, 3 or 4 points.
4. Yes, to the performance score.

I think most judges have similar criteria, but the final scores can be quite different because their personal interpretation. For example, the perceived difficulty and risk of a trick has to do with the experience of the judge with similar tricks. For example, if a player does a trick that I have been trying to learn for a long time without success, he will get lots of points. If it's a trick I can nail once every ten times I try it, it will get a high risk score. When it's a trick I have never tried, it's an educated guess based on many factors, such as how many other players do it on stage, etc. But as you can see from the actual judge scores (link) there can be a lot of variation between judges (but there can also be a lot of agreement). Judging is an art, not a science, specially when done in real time. In my opinion, if we have many judges and one player has a large advantage in points, there is no doubt he/she was the best. But if the scores of two players differ by just a couple of points, they are virtually tied and who wins it's a flip of a coin and the result could have easily been the reverse, not just with a different judging panel but even with the same one a different day. So, my recommendation if you want to have a title, is to compete as often as you can, trying to improve your routine each time. Compete against yourself, not others, and have fun.
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Jun

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Re: World Contest Judging
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2024, 09:18:54 AM »

Thank you for your reply, ta0!

Do all judges score a repeated trick a maximum of 3 times? I agree with your way to count it. If the judges doesn't do it, the competitors tend to do same tricks a lot of times. This will make the routine and contest boring. I think it should be written in the rules.

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ta0

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Re: World Contest Judging
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2024, 10:58:00 AM »

Thank you for your reply, ta0!
Do all judges score a repeated trick a maximum of 3 times? I agree with your way to count it. If the judges doesn't do it, the competitors tend to do same tricks a lot of times. This will make the routine and contest boring. I think it should be written in the rules.
I believe most judges do. It used to be written in the rules explicitly. Actually, in the old times I think it was 3 repetitions for normal tricks and 5 repetitions for regen tricks. But that became outdated with the proliferation of regens and was removed. I agree, it would be a good idea to add the 3 repetition limit to the rules.
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jim in paris

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Re: World Contest Judging
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2024, 04:19:57 AM »

hi Jun and Jorge
 your well written answer doesn't match all of Jun ' s questions
how about Q 2 and Q4
about showmanship and coordination with the music

how much overall does it count ?
10 %  ?

in ice skating, the showmanship in freestyles counts 30 %
in team flying for kite : the same

to me
we should include stage artists in the body of judges

jim
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ta0

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Re: World Contest Judging
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2024, 10:09:03 AM »

Hi Jim

The Open division is considered mainly technical and the performance score is just 15% of the total score.  There no percentages reserved for musicality, etc. If we reserved a third for musicality (5% total), it would actually weigh less than if it's unassigned: a very musical performance can get most of the performance score and a routine with lots of flow and control can also get most of the performance score.

I believe this year the performance score was the difference between 2nd and 3rd place in Open (Jun over Takumi). From just the technical scores the positions would have been reversed.

On the Traditional division, the performance score is 30%, so it's much more important.
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Dick Stohr

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Re: World Contest Judging
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2024, 12:26:13 PM »

First of all, I appriciate what you guys ITSA have done for the world contest.

2. How do judges score “Performance”? What is showmanship? What is overall quality? What is interest of the perfomance?

4. Does musicality get some points?

As a retired judge I would like to add my 2 cents in answer to Jim's post.
2. Compare a contestant who stands still and only looks at the top, to the one who uses some movement around the stage with a purpose to enhance the skill on display. Waving to the audience asking for applause is NOT contributing to the performance for me. 
4. Does the music change tempo and or volume? Does the player follow the change with tricks that show the music is there for a purpose.
Both of these are very subjective and will be scored different by different judges. One or more of the judges dedicated to judging only these categories can be a good thing.
Jun, hope this helps. Dick
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jim in paris

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Re: World Contest Judging
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2024, 04:08:50 AM »

thanks Dick for your "seasoned" statements

and I can see that you 're opened to involving a judge to evaluate showmanship and artistic intentions

good day ,pal 😎

jim
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Dick Stohr

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Re: World Contest Judging
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2024, 09:52:49 AM »

Yes, and it does not have to be a spin top player, if that judge has an entertainment or artistic background.
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