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Author Topic: Motorized top  (Read 4761 times)

Iacopo

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Motorized top
« on: April 21, 2020, 05:43:10 PM »


I made a motorized top to observe its rise and fall relatively to the push of the motor.

This is an old experiment I made, I should have included it in my last video about the rise and fall of tops but I discarded it, I didn't think to it anymore, then Jeremy's motorized top made me remember it, so I show it now.

The top is made by a flywheel mounted to a large tip through an electric motor, so that the tip can spin indipendently from the flywheel.
There are batteries and a remote control, which are attached to the chassis of the motor, together with the tip and the paper body shop.
The flywheel is attached directly to the shaft of the motor.

The paper body shop was for to cancel the torque to the tip coming from the air drag of the flywheel.

The tip has a large radius of curvature for giving some stability to the top, this top could not spin on a spiked tip.

I will show how the top behaves at constant speed of the flywheel with the tip steady, (not spinning), then with the motor in acceleration and in deceleration.

This is the top:

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Iacopo

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2020, 04:06:25 AM »


My guess was that when this top was spinning with the tip steady, the top would probably spin without rising nor falling but precessing at a constant tilt angle, because there are not frictions at the tip, since the tip is steady, not spinning.

But things were not so simple. 
This is the video.  The motor is turned on and the flywheel is spinning at constant speed. 



The top doesn't rise, it sinks down by the time. 
I didn't expect this, but, looking at the tip, it can be seen that, even if there is not spin, there is rolling.
The rolling is not due to the tip spinning, (the tip is steady), but to the precession movement.

The flywheel spins counterclockwise, (and precesses counterclockwise), but rolling happens in the opposite direction than it would happen if the tip was spinning together with the flywheel like in a normal spinning top.
So, the torque coming from the rolling resistance, which usually makes a top to rise, in this particular case is reversed, and makes the top to sink down instead of to rise.
This is more evident when the top spins on a sheet of paper, like in the video.
When the top spins on glass, it still sinks down, but quite more slowly.
In fact, rolling resistance is stronger on the paper sheet, and its consequences on the top behaviour more evident.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2020, 12:21:21 PM »

Very curious behavior at constant flywheel speed. Tip roll sounds like a good explanation. Nice experimental move with the paper vs. glass tip support.

Any photos of what's inside the paper shroud? How does the top behave without it?

Several recent discussions of "coax" tops with 2 or more coaxial components capable of independent rotation. This is yet another, with the flywheel one component, and the motor+chassis+tip assembly, the other.

Absent the motor, any bearing friction between these components would ultimately serve to transfer angular momentum, and therefore spin in the same direction, from flywheel to tip. Will have to think about how a chassis-mounted motor running at constant speed relative to the chassis might affect that flow.

Have several LEGO tops with the same configuration (flywheel rotating freely on stem+tip assembly) but without the motor. Off to experiment...
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 12:30:43 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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Iacopo

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2020, 04:56:53 PM »

Any photos of what's inside the paper shroud? How does the top behave without it?

Sorry, I have no photos, it's very simple anyway; 
The back of the chassis of the motor was glued to the ergal tip. A thin disk of light wood with a hole in the center was glued to the chassis of the motor, with the chassis inside the hole of the disk.  On the wooden disk there are glued 4 AAA size batteries and the remote control panel.  Over them there is a heavy flywheel attached directly to the shaft of the motor.  The flywheel is free to spin and doesn't touch anything of the various items around it.  The construction was compact, with no space or very little space between the various pieces.

In the beginning there was not the paper shroud, I added it later.
Without the paper shroud, the torque from the air drag on the flywheel was transferred to the tip, which tended to spin in the opposite direction of the flywheel.
I didn't want this, so I added the paper shroud, to isolate the flywheel from the air around.
I wanted the tip steady, without any torque on it. 


Absent the motor, any bearing friction between these components would ultimately serve to transfer angular momentum, and therefore spin in the same direction, from flywheel to tip. Will have to think about how a chassis-mounted motor running at constant speed relative to the chassis might affect that flow.


This experiment was similar to those I made with the gyroscope used as a spinning top, the flywheel was spinning but the tip was steady:


The gyroscope used like a spinning top has no motor, and it behaves as you say, the bearing friction tranfers torque from the flywheel to the tip, in its same direction.  Even if the torque on the tip wasn't sufficient for making the tip to spin, still this torque produces what I called a "static rolling resistance", which is in the direction to make the gyroscope rise.  So, the gyroscope spinning like a top behaves similarly to a top, they both have a rising torque from rolling, ("static" or dynamic), in the same direction, and they both can rise because of this.

The motor cancels this torque. 
For example, if you mount a wheel on a drill and turn the drill on, you feel a torque in your hands, while the wheel accelerates. 
When the drill with the wheel reaches its full and constant speed, you don't feel anymore the torque from the drill to your hands. The motor cancels the torque. 
If at that point you turn the drill off, you feel the torque again, but in opposite direction, with the wheel decelerating and trying to make the drill spin in its same direction, through the bearings friction.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 05:12:42 PM by Iacopo »
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2020, 05:42:17 PM »

Excellent video demo! Not sure I can make a tip like that with LEGO, but would like to experiment with one.

My coax tops do lots of interesting things. Good to see others experimenting with them.

Not far removed from coaxial transfer of angular momentum is the lateral transfer we've been discussing at http://www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/topic,6123.0.html .

Your tops would be ideal momentum donors. Have you ever tried this?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 05:48:56 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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ta0

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2020, 07:28:18 PM »

I'm still trying to understand this  :-\ :

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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2020, 08:46:13 PM »

I'm still trying to understand this  :-\

Does tip rotate with external red shell, as in Iacopo's mototop, or with an internal flywheel, like a wizzzer or Renee's blow-top?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 08:50:36 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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ta0

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2020, 09:06:59 PM »

Does tip rotate with external red shell, as in Iacopo's mototop, or with an internal flywheel, like a wizzzer or Renee's blow-top?
The tip is part of the shell.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2020, 09:32:24 PM »

Does tip rotate with external red shell, as in Iacopo's mototop, or with an internal flywheel, like a wizzzer or Renee's blow-top?
The tip is part of the shell.

So the configuration is that of Iacopo's top, with his paper shroud corresponding to your red shell.
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Iacopo

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2020, 12:33:27 PM »

This is the "mototop" during acceleration and deceleration of the flywheel;

ACCELERATION:
If I release the top with the motor turned on, but the flywheel is still accelerating, the push for to accelerate it makes the case/tip to be pushed in the opposite direction, for reaction, (first part in the video);  so, as the motor runs faster and faster, the flywheel is accelerated counterclockwise, and, at the same time, the tip is accelerated clockwise.  The flywheel is heavy enough so it takes time, maybe half a minute, to reach the full speed.
During the acceleration the top is unstable and it sinks down rapidly.
The reversed rolling resistance at the tip contributes to the sinking down, but I believe that the main reason of the unstability is the two masses, (the flywheel, and the rest of the top), spinning in opposite directions, which produces a weak "net gyroscopic effect" in the whole system.

DECELERATION:
When the motor is turned off, the speed between the flywheel and the tip diminishes. 
The tip slows down until stopping and then it starts to spin in the same direction of the flywheel.
At this point the "mototop" behaves like a normal top, it can rise, and it is stable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkkrrCwwzcA&feature=youtu.be
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 02:32:40 PM by Iacopo »
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Iacopo

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2020, 03:21:41 PM »

I can play with this top, driving it.  When I turn the motor off, the top starts walking more rapidly. 
When I turn it off, it starts walking more slowly or it even stops walking.
Depending on the orientation the top has in the instant I turn the motor off, I can control, to some extent, the direction where the top goes.

I don't know how the Hart top is made inside. 
It seems like the flywheel inside is changing speed, which could make the shell to invert spin direction.

In my top, I can alternete accelerations and decelerations, and in this way I can avoid the top to topple down, for a long time, but not forever;
at the start, the tip/case is steady and the flywheel spins fast, so there is an average angular momentum in the whole system in the same direction of the flywheel spin.  This angular momentum doesn't change whatever the motor does, because, if the motor is on and is accelerating the flywheel, at the same time it is decelerating the tip/case, or accelerating it backwards, so the angular momentum of the whole system does not change.
With some angular momentum of the whole system in the same direction of the flywheel spin, even if, depending of what the motor does, the tip/case sometimes stops moving or even reverses its spin direction, on average, for the most part of the time the tip will have in any case to spin in the same direction of the flywheel, (because on average the whole system is spinning in that direction).
By the time, the friction at the tip makes the average angular momentum decrease. 
When the average angular momentum will be reduced to zero, the angular momentum of the flywheel will be the same of that of the tip/case, but with opposite direction.  The top becomes more and more unstable by the time.

But I don't know if this is the case of the Hart top.
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dIdr4uO76I&feature=youtu.be
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 04:16:52 PM by Iacopo »
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ta0

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2020, 11:27:40 PM »

Quote
I can play with this top, driving it.  When I turn the motor off, the top starts walking more rapidly.
When I turn it off, it starts walking more slowly or it even stops walking.
Depending on the orientation the top has in the instant I turn the motor off, I can control, to some extent, the direction where the top goes.
I think is great, Iacopo, that you made a remote control top! I don't know if you are aware that there are some Beyblades with remote control to be able to change direction (but not in a controlled way).

My red Hart top fell from the counter last week and stopped working (second big fall it has). I finally opened it and to my surprise after soldering back a cable it's working well again. In fact, it works better that a mint-looking green one I got more recently. The red one can spin with the motor on apparently without limit, on rough and smooth surfaces, while the green one falls in a short time (but can be maintained spinning on the finger.) Both, sleep nicely once you turn off the motor.

I recorded the red one without the cover to be able to see the flywheel. I had to add a cable as it's designed to not be able to run without the cap. Unfortunately, the flywheel spins a bit too fast even when filming with 1000 fps bursts. Here is what I recorded. The shell starts not knowing in which direction to turn until 0:45. I let the motor on for about 6 minutes 30 seconds and then stopped it. There are about 11 super slow motion sections, corresponding to 0.2 seconds each (because of the camera processing time, there is a little skip after them).

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Iacopo

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2020, 04:12:20 PM »

I didn't know at all about Beyblades with remote control. 
I will observe better your video later and write something, Ta0.  Maybe I am wrong but it doesn't seem to behave like the mine.
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Iacopo

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2020, 01:34:15 PM »

This top is an interesting mistery for me:

the flywheel spins counterclockwise. 
When you release the top, by the time, the motor seems to run faster, and the shell spins clockwise, faster and faster.
This could be explained as the flywheel pushing the shell backwards as it accelerates.

One strange thing is that, once the motor goes at a relatively constant speed, the sheel seems to maintain its speed, instead of gradually slowing down, as I would expect, because of the tip friction and also the air drag on the shell. Maybe the tip friction is very low because of vibration ?  Or there is something misterious which continues to push the top clockwise ?  It could be interesting to know if the shell maintains its speed in a longer lapse of time, with motor at constant speed, maybe 10 minutes.

Another mistery is that the top, in the beginning, rises, in spite of the rolling resistance in the wrong direction. 
In fact, if I've got this right, the flywheel and the shell spin in the opposite directions.
The flywheel seems to drive the gyroscopic motion, and not the shell, because the top precesses counterclockwise.
As for what I understand, the top shouldn't rise in these conditions, my top doesn't, but the Hart top does.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember vaguely that there was another motorized top with a similar behaviour we discussed about, it had an asymmetrical flywheel, so there was something particular.  If the flywheel is asymmetrical, it could cause vibration.  Maybe this is a clue.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2020, 01:55:25 PM by Iacopo »
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Motorized top
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2020, 02:00:57 PM »

ta0: Thanks for the video! Fascinating, captain.

As I continue to digest it, would love to know which directions the flywheel and shell are actually spinning before and after the the main transitions in behavior. Don't trust the directions I'm seeing in the video, and  and especially the reversals, as some could easily be frame-rate artifacts.
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