Spin top design, from cap to tip, bearing vs. fixed

[Neff]

In response to Herman Lau's recent essay on tip design:  A-men!  I wish some of today's manufacturers would pay more attention to the tips.  IMHO, none of the major US manufacturers are making a descent fixed axle tip, YYF included (delrin is too slick, neck is too fat).

It should be noted in the discussion of tip design that bearing tips could, and perhaps should, take a different shape altogether (excluding the topic of tops convertible from bearing to fixed for the moment).  For example I think Spintastic's tip shape is much better for bearing play than fixed play.

For that matter, the whole top could take a different shape for bearing play (again excluding convertible tops).  I don't know if it was intentional, but I think YYF is the first manufacturer to recognize this; the Throwback being an amazing bearing top, the Acrobat being equally amazing for fixed axle play.

I have a feeling we will see quite a few new tops in the near future, I am hoping that whatever this thread becomes with input from the players on this forum will at least serve as a reference for manufacturers.

I have more to say, but I need to compose it a bit.

[poptop]

Good comments Chris.  On the old board we exchanged some interesting thoughts and measurements on top body and tip design.  We also wondered about the divergence in form as tops might become more specialized for fixed vs bearing.  I think that YYJ gates top and YYF throwback provide a good example as you suggested.  This is indeed the place to contine to refine our collective ideas!

On another post, Don discussed that we might not come to consensus, but I suspect we could get surprisingly close to conceptualizing an ideal.  The fact that we are still tweaking the tops we have illustrates our quest for the perfect top. 

[Neff]

After some thought, I realize this topic may be too general... exhaustive even.  Many of you have already given plenty of thought to top design.  I don't expect consensus on any one of these topics, I'm just dumping my head here so I can go get some sleep.    The comments below would be directed at mass manufacturers, mainly toward the mid to high end tops.

• Straight sides (ex Topdog) seem to encourage botched boomerangs.  Convex sides seem best.  Concave sides are silly
• Tips should be steel. Period.  An exception for low end masses like the Imperial, perhaps.
• Edit:  Tips should be available in both plastic and steel for most models
• Bearing tops should be fat, with a bunch of rim weight.
• Fixed tops should be teardrop shaped.  A range of weights are acceptable.
• Convertible tops should be optimized for fixed play
• Forget power spinners or rip cord things... and no slits in the cap, they can take off your face.
• Stop putting pointless grooves in tops, especially big ones.
• Weight rings are much more effective on the outside.
• Weight rings should not move when the top is used.  Rubber O-rings are not weight rings.
• Caps should not move when the top is spun.  I can't believe I have to list that.
• I think there is potential for ring tricks with bearing tops, might consider sizing the cap for an existing ring or fabricating it's own.
• Somebody please make / sell me a one-way bearing top so I can quit wondering how it feels.
• Let's see some glow and light-up tops, people!
• Henrys - make a rubber top.  Now.
• Aluminum tops are going to ding.  Don't put a nice paint job on it so I feel apprehensive to use it... well... at least have one available in clear aluminum.
• (edit) Consider Wood... it IS good
• Caps of a different color than the base emphasize the top precession.
• Buttons should be light and round-edged.

I have successfully made myself very tired...
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[agentsac]

couldn't agree more. you've listed just about everything i could think of. strong work my friend. take a nap, you've earned it.

[johnm]

The comments below would be directed at mass manufacturers, mainly toward the mid to high end tops.

• Fixed tops should be teardrop shaped.  A range of weights are acceptable.

What about the general size of the top--Quicksilver vs. Acrobat vs. Cuper, etc.?  I guess this price range would be targeting the contest players where visibility is important.  Is it expected that simply scaling a single top shape to different sizes provides a good top for large hands vs. small hands?  For manufacturers, design and prototyping (and mold making for plastic) are expensive and time consuming so giving them an overall preferred size as a starting point (ratio of maximum diameter to overall height for example) may be appreciated.

For plastics tops what's the longest life, best string response surface, preferred color options for visibility, ... of the various types of plastics currently tried?

These are just a few of the questions I thought about and believe that if we do the consumer research, then the manufacturers may incorporate ideas which reflect what we want.  I realize that I have not answered (i.e. supplied my opinion because, as mentioned before, everyone plays differently and therefore will have different preferences) any of these questions myself 

[MarkHayward]

You make some great points Chris, but I have to quibble with 1.5 of them.

1: I like plastic tips on my performing tops when I am outdoors because on the rare occasion that I drop them on concrete, the tip gets blunted (bad) but the top is still playable (good).  With a steel tip I can no longer catch it in my hand without getting torn up by the now-jagged tip.

.5: You did qualify your statements as being for Mid to High-level tops, but I want to point out that Rip Cords etc, and fantastic for beginners.

[Neff]

Good point (pun intended ).  During a show bleeding is not so good, and you don't have time to be filing down tips. 

And I suppose spinning mechanisms have their place.

I will modify the original rant.

[jim in paris]

salut !
great input , chris !
for your list, i would add the classic
"wood is good" : a natural resource , renewable and heavy duty


jim

[Neff]

...giving them [manufacturers] an overall preferred size as a starting point (ratio of maximum diameter to overall height for example) may be appreciated.

This is a great point and very important, IMO.  It may be impossible to come to consensus on the ideal size, but the ideal proportion I think may be tangible.  Of the tops that I have, the Acrobat seems to have a pretty good proportion for standard fixed tip tops.  Many of Alan Grays seem to have that same proportion - coincidence?

The measurement for width is fairly obvious, but height is weird because tips and crowns can be so different.  Would it be best from neck of tip to the bottom of the crown?

[Spinningray]

About 18 months ago I started playing around with different ratios and ran across an ideal (I think anyhow) height to diameter. If the top is too short and fat, the spin is not very stable. If the top is too tall and skinny, the spin time is reduced. I made a 2" diameter top that seemed to play very well. I tried scaling it up to larger diameters and it still played very well. Fuego has the new ratio. That is why it is much taller than my other big tops.

I am now making tops in 2/3" increments starting at 2". 2-2/3", 3-1/3", 4",...etc. It just seems to result in easily measurable critical dimensions. I do use the dimension from the bottom of the crown to the neck of the tip as one of the critical dimensions. The crown just needs to be tall enough to hold the string. The dimension from the neck of the tip to the widest diameter is another critical dimension.

I did sell Hans some of the new style tops before the Acrobat came out. I'm sure he had lots of input from other top spinners as well. I would suggest some changes to the Acrobat tip configuration. Maybe if he produces some more someday.

[MarkHayward]

I just want to make sure that Alan gets the credit he deserves here.  I don't know how much Hans referred to the tops Alan made when he was designing the Acrobat, but I can tell you how excited Hans was to hear about the rumored "Golden Ratio" top that Alan had made, and how excited he was to be able to buy it.  Without Hans' input I can't prove it, but I suspect that Alan's tinkering and subsequent discovery of the "Golden Ratio" (as I like to call it) has influenced high-quality top-making forever.

[Neff]

Yes!  The Golden Ratio has several names, Architects tend to call it the Golden Section.  1:1.618...

mmmmm science...

[Spinningray]

Thanks Mark. I did look for the golden ratio in the dimensions, but was not able to find it. That would have been extra cool.

I did find that the diameter is equivalent to the distance from the tip to the widest part of the top. In other words. If you put the top in an open cube with sides equal to the top diameter, the top of the cube would be at the widest part of the top.

[Daveid]

i agree with the point about buttons a lot but i also want it to be contoured to the shape of my fingers (just enough so that it doesn't move around at all but is still easily removed from hand)

please forgive my terrible gramar

i don't think i'd be inclined to walking away from tops if i didn't feel like eventually i'm going to have to fix this thing with parts i made myself if it breaks because i won't be able to buy a new top, or replacement parts are not easily available... for instance: the tip that came on my topdog is a different design than the replacement tips for yyj tops i've got, the tip that came with it is a superior design and at least half of the replacements came with cracks in them...
i'm tired of having to learn how to use new tops because the ones i just got used to went out of production for some reason, "what's the point" keeps repeating in my head.
why would i ever want to spend $100+ on a totally amazing top if they're so rare that if i break it i don't have a method of replacement, that's just silly... (i'd do it anyway but only because my choices are few).

i still want a chihuahua or a similarly shaped top of greater size to find out what can be done with it.

i wouldn't care about the pointless grooves in the sides of tops if they were somehow designed to not ever catch on the string when i'm trying to trapeze or something.

[Neff]

All points agreed, Daveid.  I too would have a sour taste in my mouth if I finally settled on a couple of molds as my fave players and then, poof, gone.

I (we) encourage you to hang on a bit...  It's high time for another skill toy surge and there are some promising things happening.

Myself, I seem have a three year itch with my interests.  I can only concentrate on something for three years at a time.  It's good to take breaks.