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ITSA General Assembly: December 5th - 12th

Author Topic: did leonardo spin tops?  (Read 2950 times)

ta0

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2018, 07:04:14 PM »

The archive is here: www.leonardodigitale.com
I used the search function on the archive to find it. I entered "calmone" because it was in a quotation from Leonardo mentioned in the proposed packaging of the failed kickstarter campaign. A note in the English transcript says it is a word for top in the Milanese dialect. But "trottola" also finds it. Of the 5 pages total that come up with those terms, this one appears to be the only one directly related to tops. The other ones appear to mention tops as an analogy.

At first I could not make up any words on that page. Then I remembered that Leonardo liked to write with a mirror, so I flipped the page in the horizontal direction:



Now it's easy to see that it starts with "La trottola" but the rest is still illegible to me. Fortunately, the site gives both the Italian transcript and an English translation. From what I understand, Leonardo says that when the rotational impetus is larger than the effect of its weight, it will stand up, when it's smaller it will lay down rotating with respect to its center, and when they are equal they will compete causing the top to lean and precess.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 09:37:40 PM by ta0 »
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the Earl of Whirl

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2018, 08:37:33 PM »

Good stuff!!!

When I put "calmone" in Google I get a lot of information about "calm one"!!!
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peonza

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2019, 11:17:23 AM »

Oh wonderful. This is a great information. Thanks for sharing this information. It´s a very good start to the year.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2019, 11:58:24 AM »

How did Leonardo start that top if not by throwing it?

We know that whipping tops predated Leonardo by many centuries. But the shape of this top is wrong for whipping. And you'd still have to start it, as whipping is just a way to counteract spin decay, no?

Well, that and to fantasize about whipping other things.  >:D

Another possibility totally in character for a guy like Leonardo: A mechanical starter.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 01:16:38 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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ta0

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2019, 01:52:45 PM »

How did Leonardo start that top if not by throwing it?

We know that whipping tops predated Leonardo by many centuries. But the shape of this top is wrong for whipping. And you'd still have to start it, as whipping is just a way to counteract spin decay, no?

Well, that and to fantasize about whipping other things.  >:D

Another possibility totally in character for a guy like Leonardo: A mechanical starter.

I would bet that's a peg top. But even if it was a whip top, it would be started by wrapping the whip around and throwing it.

I cannot think of an earliest "proof" than Bruegel for a top thrown without a whip. But I wouldn't be surprised if they were around for centuries before somebody documented them.
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the Earl of Whirl

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2019, 02:05:59 PM »

Before strings or whips, basic spinning top like things most likely had to be started by hand.  One has to wonder how far people could have gone with spinning objects by hand.  As a habit, I spin everything I can by hand just for the fun of it and could have spun that top, as I am sure many of you could.  But I cannot help but think that very few people would have been interested in going that far with their spinning.  Maybe a court jester or some kind of entertainer would have pushed the limits?  Maybe that is the kind of thing Leonardo worked on?  Of course, Leonardo was so curious about everything why would he not spin a top by hand, by string, by whip and by whatever else?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 02:11:19 PM by the Earl of Whirl »
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2019, 05:38:09 PM »

I would bet that's a peg top.... But I wouldn't be surprised if they were around for centuries before somebody documented them.

Agree on both counts.

Before strings or whips, basic spinning top like things most likely had to be started by hand.  One has to wonder how far people could have gone with spinning objects by hand.  As a habit, I spin everything I can by hand just for the fun of it and could have spun that top, as I am sure many of you could.  But I cannot help but think that very few people would have been interested in going that far with their spinning.  Maybe a court jester or some kind of entertainer would have pushed the limits?  Maybe that is the kind of thing Leonardo worked on?  Of course, Leonardo was so curious about everything why would he not spin a top by hand, by string, by whip and by whatever else?

The movie version features a beautiful young archeologist kidnapped after discovering the location of Da Vinci's lost top starter. If anybody had one back then, it would have been Leonardo. Doubt it would have had gears or springs, but can easily imagine a ripcord starter for the top shown.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 07:12:21 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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ta0

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2019, 12:37:27 AM »

Here are the official transcription and English translation:
=======================
Del moto circunvolubile

{1, trottola verticale}
La trottola ovvero calmone, che per la velocità del suo moto circunvolubile perde la potenzia, che ha la innequalità della sua gravezza intomo al centro del suo circunvolubile per causa dello impeto, che signoreggia esso corpo, il quale corpo arà mai l’intento della declinazione, che desidera la inequalità della sua gravezza, insino a tanto che la potenzia dell’impeto, motore d’esso corpo, non si fa inore d’essa potenzia della inequalità.

{3, trottola orizzontale}
Ma quando la potenzia della inequalità supera la potenzia dell’impeto, allora essa si fa centro del moto circunvolubile, e cosi tal corpo, posto a diacere, finisce sopra tal centro il rimanente del predetto impeto.

{2, trottola obliqua}
E quando la potenzia della inequalità si fa equale alla potenzia dell’impeto, allora il calmone si piega per obbliquo e con moto composto combattano le due potenzie, e con gran circuito movano l’una l’altra, insino che si stabilisca el centro alla seconda spezie del circunvolubile, e in quello termina l’impeto la sua potenzia.

================

On circular motion

{1, drawing of top upright}
Through the velocity of its circulating motion, the top or calmone, loses the power that the inequality of  its heaviness about the center of its circulating has from the cause of the impetus dominating this body. And this body  will never tend to the declination desired by the inequality of its heaviness, until such time as the power of the impetus moving this body becomes less than the power of the inequality.

{3, drawing of top horizontal}
But when the power of the inequality exceeds the power of the impetus, then this becomes the center of the circulating motion. And thus, this body finishes the remainder of the aforesaid impetus in a prone position over this center.

{2, drawing of top spinning obliquely}
And when the power of the inequality becomes equal to the power of the impetus, then the top bends obliquely, and the two power combat in a composite motion. And they move one another in a great circuit until the center of the second species of the circulating is established, and in that, the impetus of its power terminates.

======================

Perhaps Iacopo can improve them  ;)
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: did leonardo spin tops?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2019, 02:24:54 PM »

Visited an extensive traveling Da Vinci exhibit at the Denver Museum of Nature and Science last weekend. When it comes to a museum near you, just one word: Go!

The exhibit featured faithful reproductions of many of Da Vinci's experiments and inventions beautifully crafted in wood and metal. No tops or other spintoys, but many of his gizmos used rotating components, and several were designed to harness/experiment with centrifugal force.

Also featured were convincing reproductions of his notebooks and many famous paintings -- the latter in their original colors (i.e., before any aging or revarnishing). The highly advanced image processing science used to deduce original colors was thoroughly explained in plain English in a 20-minute video about the Mona Lisa's original colors.
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