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Author Topic: spin top rules  (Read 681 times)

Dale

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spin top rules
« on: March 19, 2018, 04:45:11 PM »

Hi All,
My take on the current scoring rules.
No deduct for a drop: A drop is a miss. Why would there be no point deduct for a miss? Long ago it was figured that a drop was costly enough without a penalty deduct. I don't think with the level of play today that this is still valid.
A deduct for winding the top: This has to be a rule for the audience. While I understand, I don't agree. The time it takes to wind is certainly deduct of time in itself. In addition, particularly players who use big tops are more at a disadvantage not to mention that many of these players don't have a whole bunch of tops to pre-wind. I think almost all of the traditional top players rewind during their performances.
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Dale

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scoring rules
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2018, 04:48:37 PM »

Admin note: I merged the two threads.
===================================

Hi All,
My take on a couple of the current scoring rules.
No deduct for a drop:
A drop is a miss. Why would there be no point deduct for a miss? Long ago it was figured that a drop was costly enough without a penalty deduct. I don't think with the level of play today that this is still valid.

A deduct for winding the top:
This has to be a rule for the audience. While I understand, I don't agree. The time it takes to wind is certainly deduct of time in itself. In addition, particularly players who use big tops are more at a disadvantage not to mention that many of these players don't have a whole bunch of tops to pre-wind. I think almost all of the traditional top players rewind during their performances.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 11:28:26 AM by ta0 »
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ta0

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Re: scoring rules
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 07:32:37 PM »

This is a good discussion to have now that there is plenty of time until Worlds.

We did have a deduction for drops for 2 or 3 years. In fact, I remember very clearly in Prague that, each time I dropped the top, the hands of the judges came forward and pressed a button clicker for negative points in front of them (some judges tried to be discreet, others kind of slammed it  ::) )  The reason we decided to remove it was that it makes the players more risk adverse. Trying a high risk trick could result not just in zero points but negative points (and taken from the score after normalization). At least I, as a competitor, would consider it in my selection of tricks.

In the case of the winding, I agree there is double jeopardy. This was on purpose. Even with the intrinsic time penalty, players were winding. We wanted to get rid of this, for the public's sake.  With enough prepared tops (or a good snap start) there is no need to do it.

Both points are debatable and I don't feel very strongly about them. But I prefer the current rules.
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jmadrigal

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Re: scoring rules
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2018, 12:25:43 AM »

I agree the rules are good as they are.

I don't think the level of play is high when we can't gather three people for a competition.

Drops should be there own punishment. I agree that that more difficult tricks should be encouraged.

Snap start solves the winding issue.
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Kirk

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Re: scoring rules
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2018, 09:09:08 AM »

I think almost all of the traditional top players rewind during their performances.
Some large tops are fussy enough that a wind done early can relax and be a bit dangerous. I am thinking about how the Colombian players made it a point not to throw toward the judges.
I don't think the level of play is high when we can't gather three people for a competition.
---- Snap start solves the winding issue.
These two statements oppose each other.  I can't snap start, nor is it even possible with some traditional tops.  If one needs to snap start to compete then we will reduce the numbers.
While I don't think that the rules are the only reason that we have so few competitors, we need to be sure that the rules do not raise a barrier.
not to mention that many of these players don't have a whole bunch of tops to pre-wind.
Dale got a bunch of my money just before the Cleveland Worlds due to this rule :)
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jmadrigal

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Re: scoring rules
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2018, 12:31:58 PM »

The way I look at it I will tailor my performance to the rules. I know my abilities. If I can't snap start, buy lots of tops and have them prewound. If I can snap start, I need less tops. For traditional players I would say bring plenty of tops. It's not that big a deal.
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jim in paris

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Re: scoring rules
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2018, 01:58:48 PM »

agreed on both topics

a drop is such a "punishment " in itself that it don't need to be negatively scored
rewinding is a real loss of time when doing a 3mn freestyle
the case of large tops could still be an exception with the jury's agreement

jim
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ta0

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Re: scoring rules
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2018, 10:25:39 PM »

the case of large tops could still be an exception with the jury's agreement
This could be a good idea (including traditional tops).

Perhaps we could eliminate a point penalty per winding and just explicitly state that in the performance score, winding will be a detriment, leaving the judges the liberty of penalize (or not) as they see fit.
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Turegano

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Re: scoring rules
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 09:25:19 AM »

in the particular I think we should have 5 categories 1t 2t 3t 4t and 5t

that refers to a top regular zize t1 two tops t2 tops of t3 bearring  top spinning t4 and big spin t5 clasical wood to make it more legal and nobody is at a disadvantage I think that it will be more attractive and would be dispersed but the training of each category It is unfair for me to compete with different size spins without being classified and also to leave a seeded seed that the previous champion automatically qualified for the final and the first 5 places have a similar position for the next world. we have to make stars give diffusion to the best players to make a virtual magazine where the biographies of each player come so that the children of new generations can make their idols and so we can infect more children and be more each time
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 09:36:02 AM by Turegano »
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Dale

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Re: spin top rules
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2018, 05:55:58 PM »

Okay, it looks like I may be banging my head against the wall battling these rules. Let me get the answer to this question before I concede.
You have two players. Both due pretty much the same tricks only one never drops the top and the other drops it several times. If you don't deduct for drops, do both wind up with the same score???
I give credit for what is completed. Some tricks are long and complicated so a miss at the end doesn't cancel the part of the trick that was good. A trick might be worth 5 points and if there is a drop at the end what do we do? He gets full credit? No credit? I would like to give them 5 points and one deduct for the drop. Or I could just give them 4 points (which means I deducted one for the drop all in my head.)
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jmadrigal

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Re: spin top rules
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2018, 08:37:41 PM »

A drop should be -1 in technical while winding would be -1 in showmanship. Unless you make winding the top look good ;)
It makes sense that if you have two players that have comparable routines, the one with less drops should win.


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