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Author Topic: Lista de trucos/ Trick list  (Read 281 times)

Patrick

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Lista de trucos/ Trick list
« on: January 12, 2018, 06:02:29 PM »


I was thinking that it would be of great help and interest for everyone to make a list of tricks as before had already been proposed by Horch ... but this time with the purpose of achieving the best classification of tricks and their variants ... that's right, gentlemen. I refer to the taxonomy of the tricks that we know today, and the proposal is the collaboration of all to create the most complete list possible as well as the best structured, categorized, hierarchical, etc. I guess I already made the idea understand but I give you a simple example applied to the spintop: in which
                                                                                                                             0 = Domain
                                                                                                                             1 = Kingdom
                                                                                                                             2 = Phylum
                                                                                                                             3 = Class
                                                                                                                             4 = Order
                                                                                                                             5 = Family
                                                                                                                             6 = Gender
                                                                                                                             7 = Species
                                                                                                                             8 = Subspecies

 1-tricks that can only be done with a fixed tip
            2-trick of two hands
                        3-regeneration
                                  4-low speed
                                            5- in which the top is horizontal or "lying down" (or on the X axis, and the description could be given in hours)
                                                      6- continuous trick
                                                                7-Trick Name: Continuous Suns
                                                                         8- Continuous Suns releasing the left hand

                                                      6- not continuous, or irregular
                                            5- in which the top is vertical or "standing" (or on the Y axis, and the description could be given in hours)
                                 4-half speed
                                 4-high speed
                                 4-tricks that require something specific (some kind of preparation)
                      3-without regeneration
          2-one-handed
1-tricks that can only be done with a bearing tip
1-tricks that can only be done with one way bearing tip
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the moment I think we can start by proposing classification categories, then vote for those that will remain (which could be all) and continue to rank them ...

I would like to know what you think ...?

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Estaba pensando que seria de gran ayuda e interés para todos hacer una lista de trucos como antes ya se había propuesto por Horch... pero ésta vez con el propósito de lograr la mejor clasificación de trucos y sus variantes... así es señores me refiero a la taxonomía de los trucos que hasta el día de hoy conocemos, y la propuesta es la colaboración de todos para crear la lista más completa posible así como lo mejor estructurada, categorizada, jerarquizada, etc. supongo que ya di a entender la idea pero les doy un ejemplo sencillo aplicado al trompo: en el que
                                                                                                                             0=Dominio
                                                                                                                             1=Reino
                                                                                                                             2=Filo
                                                                                                                             3=Clase
                                                                                                                             4=Orden
                                                                                                                             5=Familia
                                                                                                                             6=Género
                                                                                                                             7=Especie
                                                                                                                             8=Subespecie

1-trucos que sólo se pueden hacer con punta fija
            2-truco de dos manos
                        3-de regeneración
                                  4-de baja velocidad
                                            5- en el que el trompo se encuentra en horizontal o "acostado" (o sobre el eje X , y se podría dar la descripción en horas)
                                                      6- truco continuo
                                                                7-Nombre de truco: Continuous Suns
                                                                         8- Continuous Suns soltando la mano izquierda

                                                      6- no continuo, o irregular
                                            5- en el que el trompo se encuentra en vertical o "de pie" (o sobre el eje Y , y se podría dar la descripción en horas)
                                 4-de media velocidad
                                 4-de alta velocidad
                                 4-trucos que requieren algo en especifico (algún tipo de preparación)
                      3-sin regeneración
          2-de una mano
1-trucos que sólo se pueden hacer con punta de rodamiento
1-trucos que sólo se pueden hacer con punta de rodamiento unidireccional

Por el momento creo que podemos empezar proponiendo categorías de clasificación posteriormente votar por las que se quedarán (que podrían ser todas) y continuar por jerarquizarlas...

Me gustaría saber qué piensan...?



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ta0

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Re: Lista de trucos/ Trick list
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 11:35:22 PM »

Wow!  :o That's an ambitious goal, Patrick.
But it's probably not feasible and my guess not very useful.

One problem with the classification example you give is that the category "it can only be done with X type of tip" has proven wrong time and time again. In the early 2000's we considered corkscrew a bearing-only trick. Same for Mach 5. On the other hand, people have demonstrated roller coaster regens with some bearing tops. But even with a different classification, it would be a lot of work and no matter how complex some tricks would be very difficult to peg to any single category. More useful would be a list of tricks with some tags like I once tried on my site: degree of difficulty, popularity, tip type, regeneration potential.

I think it's natural to try some classification or ordering method if one makes a list of tricks. That works fine for a list that is not too long. But I suspect that for a very extensive list you have to go alphabetical. Let's say you put all the corkscrew tricks together and all the wire walking tricks together. Where do you put To Hell and Back? You say it looks more as belonging to corkscrew. Ok, what if we take out a wrap and make the walking longer?

Complex and extensive classifications have been done for spinning tops, but they have not become popular. I think tricks would be a considerably more difficult challenge.
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Patrick

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Re: Lista de trucos/ Trick list
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2018, 01:05:15 PM »

I know, it's a very ambitious goal, yes I had thought about what you say about the tricks that fall into several categories of tip type ... that's why apart from the ones I proposed we could put more, like another that says " tricks that can be done with any tip "and I would also like to put the regeneration potencial of the trick

I also understand what you say about the tags ... what I propose works very similar, in this case I was thinking that once we had the categories (which basically refers to the characteristics of the trick) we filled a database to be able to analyze of data ... for example in Pearls (https://tfetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ProgrammingPearls2nd.pdf) which could result in a program that allows build routines or combos of tricks ... and who knows even elucidate new tricks!

As for the trick to Hell and back I guess I would describe it as a continuous combo or trick composed, the tricks: El ratón loco (the name according trompos cometa, I do not know what it's called in English) + Staircase to Heaven


I do not know many tricks by his name in English, I even do tricks to which I can not quote by name in Spanish hahaha for me is one more reason to make a list with the name of the trick in English and Spanish if it have it


Finally, however difficult and utopian the goal is, it is not a reason to be discouraged, to advance little by little it is already gain
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Lo se ta0 es una meta muy ambiciosa, si había pensado en lo que dices de los trucos que entran en varias categorías de tipo de punta... es por ello que aparte de las que yo propuse podríamos poner más, como otra que diga "trucos que se pueden hacer con cualquier punta" y también me agradaría poner el grado de regeneración que proporciona el truco

También entiendo lo que dices de las etiquetas... lo que propongo funciona muy parecido, en este caso estaba pensando que una vez que tuviésemos las categorías (que básicamente hace referencia a las características del truco) llenáramos una base de datos para poder hacer análisis de los datos... por ejemplo en Pearls (https://tfetimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ProgrammingPearls2nd.pdf)  lo que podría dar como resultado un programa que permite armar rutinas o combos de trucos... y quien sabe igual y hasta dilucidamos nuevos trucos!

En cuanto al truco to Hell and back supongo que yo lo describiría como un combo continuo ó truco compuesto, los trucos: El ratón loco (el nombre según los de trompos cometa, no se como se llame en inglés ) +  Staircase to Heaven


No conozco muchos trucos por su nombre en inglés, incluso hago trucos a los que no puedo citar por nombre ni en español jajaja para mi es una razón más para hacer una lista con el nombre del truco en ingles y español en caso de tenerlo


Finalmente por más difícil y utópica que sea la meta no es razón para desanimarse, avanzar poco a poco ya es ganancia
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Ketzaltlipoka

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Re: Lista de trucos/ Trick list
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2018, 10:58:07 PM »

El trompo ha evolucionado a pasos gigantescos en los últimos años. Creo que esta propuesta de sistematizar este ARTE debe ser plenamente analizada y revisada, porque creo, que, debe ser llevada a cabo. Va a requerir mucho tiempo, mucha paciencia, mucha dedicación, mucha entrega, mucha calma, mucha erudición y no va a ser una labor de una sóla persona. Cuenten conmigo para ello. Contribuiré a este proyecto de sistematización.


Spinning top has evolutioned with huge steps in the last years. I believe that this proposal of trying to systematize this ART must be analized and reviewed carefully, because, I think, must be done. It´s going to require a lot of time, lot of patience, lot of dedication, lot of courage, lot of calm, lot of erudition, and it´s not going to be a task of only one person. Count with me on it. I willl put my contribution to this project of sistematization.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 11:03:00 PM by Ketzaltlipoka »
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jim in paris

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Re: Lista de trucos/ Trick list
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2018, 01:17:14 AM »

that's words of wisdom Salvador !

however , let's not forget the anagram of ALBERT EINSTEIN which is "RIEN N EST ETABLI"

salute 8)

jim
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Mermouy

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Re: Lista de trucos/ Trick list
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2018, 07:36:17 AM »

Hi,
I have a project planned to make a trick only oriented website more in the style of yoyotricks.com, I'm actually experimenting differents solutions, I can't spend a lot of time at the moment, but I think I will have a beta version of it for the festivals, as we will be some top throwers there it will be a good point to start and discuss about it...
For now what I found most useful is a "tag" based classification like:
Barrel rolls (Chris Neff video) would be tagged as: Fixed-tip, regenerating (in the way you can do it repeatly more than accelerating), tutorial (because of the off-voice indications), Level4 (indicating an average difficulty?), Chris Neff (To be able to find back and list all Chris Neff videos), Barrel rolls (to be able to list all Barrel rolls variations) etc etc...

Of course we will also able to make kind of playlist, like ladders or themed list of tricks etc...

Once again this is just a project, we will see if it can be useful...
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Turegano

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Re: Lista de trucos/ Trick list
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2018, 08:58:39 PM »

At some point I proposed it we also have to have three categories fixed point and size also see the difficulty of regeneration I think that one way to qualify the regeneration would be counting how many changes of luck do we say that if in a 3 min routine it makes a regeneration count how many different lots there are in that regeneration and how many changes can I make if I make an orbit a trapeze a lasso a cane and a slide are 5 changes in the same generation I mean not only a luck by regeneration I hope your opinions and also count on me for what you can take care of I am at your service

en algun momento yo lo propuse tambien  tenemos que tener  tres  categorias    punta  fija   balero   y tamaños   tambien  ver la dificultad de regeneracion   pienso yo que una manera  de calificar la regeneracin seria  contando cuantos cambios de suerte  hace digamos que si en una rutina de 3 min hace  una regeneracion contar cuantas suertes diferentes hay en esa regeneracion  y cuantos  cambios  puede  hacer  es decir  si hago una orbita un trapecio una lazada  un baston y un tobogan  son 5 cambios en la misma generacion  me refiero a no solo una suerte por regeneracion  espero sus opiniones  y tambien cuenten conmigo para lo que se pueda  ocupar  estoy a su servicio
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