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Author Topic: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?  (Read 9032 times)

Bert

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hello
i am new to this forum. i am a 34yo guy from bruges, Belgium. I started this year with my own small bunisess restauring and renting old traditional games.

One of the games that I have is a Toupie Hollandaise. It was missing the metal spinning top (as usual), so I decided to have one made by a metalworking company in the area. They did a rather fine job, making it exactly as I drew it. the only thing is that it does not bounce around much.
I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM6pJ39-MtM&t=147s and it made me jealous. My spinning top is just spinning around in the same place for 2 minutes, while it should be knocking the skittles around.

I am wondering if it might help if I would make the tip round? Would that help the top travel more?
Now it is rather flat: I sanded the edges off a bit, but there is a 4mm diameter that is completely flat.
If I make it into a point, it will surely say in the same place, possibly burning a hole in the wood floor.

On the other end, I was thinking of waybe coating the edge of the spinning top as to increase the friction when it hits the iron guiding rails. i tried it already with rubber rings, but they don't stay in place. The speed is just too high, so they spin off immediately.i was thinking maybe applying a layer of sillicone or something?

Does anybody have a suggestion?




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the Earl of Whirl

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 02:22:25 PM »

Thanks for highlighting that video again.  So much good stuff in it!!!  It looks like there is a slight tilt on their game.  I am sure ta0 can fill us in more with that but both of your ideas will make a difference.  I have not done much with a rubberized side but I have experimented quite a bit with different tips.  Ironically, it seems my best dancers are accidents!

Welcome, Bert!!!
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Dick Stohr

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 05:14:59 PM »

We have several posters here that can give you the science but I think that making a point and just a very little off center would be a good test.
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studio42

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 05:24:26 PM »

Check this out:

http://jeux-anciens.fr/categorie/table-a-toupie/

It looks like the bottoms are slightly rounded. I wonder if the top portion itself is intentionally a bit out of balance to encourage it to move around. It also appears that the launch is via a ramp so I'm assuming that's what gets it started walking across the table. I didn't see any rubber rings on the new tops.
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Iacopo

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 02:58:09 AM »

Hi Bert,

I think that if you are complaining about the top tending to spin staying too much in the same place, making the tip more rounded will not help. 
What makes the top to move along the table while spinning is the top spinning in slightly tilted position, so that the contact point of the tip is not located in the axis of rotation of the top but at some distance from it, depending on the shape of the tip.
The larger this distance, the faster the top will move on the table.  If you make a more rounded tip, the littler the radius of curvature, the more you will reduce this distance and the top will tend to become more stationary. 
So I believe that what you need is to flatten the tip a bit more, lengthening the radius of curvature, and not to round it.

The tip must be perfectly centered in the geometrical axis of the top, or you would have imbalance. 
You don't want any imbalance in the top, it is not imbalance which makes the top to move in that way.
If you change the shape of the tip, you should do this with a lathe, to maintain good concentricity and simmetry of the tip, so the top would move more smoothly.

I don't think you need rubber rings; it seems to me that you only need to improve the shape of the contact point of the tip, making it flatter.  The flatter tip will also make it "bounce" better.
I would leave in place the mm 4 flat area in the center of the tip.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 03:52:52 AM by Iacopo »
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ta0

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 09:29:08 AM »

Welcome to the forum, Bert!

The secret is to make the bottom of the tip slanted. In fact, Jim (in Paris) who filmed the video that you linked, made a top for a Toupie Hollandaise at a museum who was missing one and it worked quite well. I think he posted a video, but I cannot find it, but he should be able to tell you the details when he logs in.

PS: I should be posting a video of a comparable collection this weekend  ;)
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jim in paris

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2017, 05:53:59 PM »

hello Bert !

there are several factors to help the top react to the obstacles, bounce all around , eventually finishing by a hit in the angels balls

 the top itself : the original tops for toupie tables are not made of brass or copper ,but of tin : a  light metal alloy ...the weight should be well under 200 grams
what does your top weight ?
 the tip :  it should be almost flat , with a convex shape, a bit like the end of a pencil
winding  the rope/string :the winding should be regular and tight
the pull: it needs a bit of practice: best results when you pull hard but slowly,with control..


Q about your table :type of  wood , size , decorations,where did you get it ?

Bruges is so close to Paris ;) you are welcome to visit "the collectionneur" my friend Cyril who is an active supporter of our forum(especially whenever we have a raffle..)

salut for now

jim
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jim in paris

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2017, 01:10:25 AM »

some precisions if you are still interested in the top showed in the video of cyril's collection

the upper part of the top is hollow
the weight is 178 grams



jim
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Bert

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 04:43:02 AM »

wel,  thanks to everyone for the advice. My top was carved from a solid block of iron, so the weight is a bit higher: 225g.

I tried shaping and reshaping the top and found that the next-to-flat surface worked best, but it is still not bouncing around, rather slowly moving about the table.
I guess the weight has a lot to do with that.
Does anybody know if it is possible to find a solid block of tin and shape it on a lathe?

As for the table: it is about 120x60 wide. I found it in an auction in the west of France.




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ta0

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 11:38:06 AM »

Out of the lathe the top would be very well balanced. I wonder if for this application it would be good to unbalance the top a bit on purpose :-\  This could be done by adding or removing material from one side of the body.  If the tip is slightly slanted, I would experiment with added mass in the direction of the slant and also at 90 degrees. This could help with the "walking" aspect. But I agree, if you want it to "bounce" it should be light.
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Kirk

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2017, 11:19:00 PM »

Some of Jeremy's tops in this video are stable but walk a great deal when the hit the edge. Perhaps Jeremy can help explain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=D_btrG34M0Q
 see the one at 3:21
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Iacopo

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2017, 01:51:10 PM »

Bert, maybe you need to throw the top in a more tilted position.  If the top spins with the stem nearly vertical, it moves slowly, I think.  If you can make it spin in a bit more tilted position, (not very much tilted, just something like 3 degrees or so), it should walk faster along the table.
I am not sure how to make it bounce; I see there are two protruding rings in the flywheel, which I suppose they are the parts which hit the obstacles and make the top to change direction.
Does it matter which one of the two rings hits the obstacle ?  Maybe the top bounces better when it hits the obstacle at a certain height more than at another eight.  Maybe these tops are designed together with the table and they bounce at their best when they spin in their table and maybe not in other tables, if the tops hit the obstacles at a wrong height. But it's just a supposition, I don't know.
Usually I agree with everything Ta0 says, he is like a father for all of us, but still I don't think that the solution is to make the top unbalanced, (but I could be wrong.  :-[).

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ta0

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 12:11:28 PM »

Usually I agree with everything Ta0 says, he is like a father for all of us, but still I don't think that the solution is to make the top unbalanced, (but I could be wrong.  :-[).
If the top is unbalanced, it will appear to vibrate. I am guessing that if in addition the tip is slanted, the top might skitter over the surface. It would be interesting to place an extra weight at different positions around the rim with respect to the direction of the slope of the tip and see what happens.
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2017, 07:40:16 PM »

there are several factors to help the top react to the obstacles, bounce all around , eventually finishing by a hit in the angels balls

 the top itself : the original tops for toupie tables are not made of brass or copper ,but of tin : a  light metal alloy ...the weight should be well under 200 grams
what does your top weight ?
 the tip :  it should be almost flat , with a convex shape, a bit like the end of a pencil
winding  the rope/string :the winding should be regular and tight
the pull: it needs a bit of practice: best results when you pull hard but slowly,with control..

some precisions if you are still interested in the top showed in the video of cyril's collection

the upper part of the top is hollow
the weight is 178 grams

Now that I've had a chance to study your video of Cyril's tables in action and to do some LEGO experiments (with tops like the ones Kirk pointed out along with many others), I see the wisdom of your words here. For starters, I think that hollow rotors are essential, and that Bert's top is too heavy.

I also see other factors in play, but before getting into that, I have a question for anyone having first-hand experience with a top+table combo that works as well as Cyril's: Do the holes in the sides of the rotors engage the bumpers in any way, however slight?

I'm guessing that they do.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 07:44:05 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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Kirk

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Re: metal spinning top for Toupie hollandaise: how to make it bouncy?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2017, 01:38:18 PM »

some precisions if you are still interested in the top showed in the video of cyril's collection
the upper part of the top is hollow
 the weight is 178 grams
Now that I've had a chance to study your video of Cyril's tables in action and to do some LEGO experiments (with tops like the ones Kirk pointed out along with many others), I see the wisdom of your words here. For starters, I think that hollow rotors are essential, and that Bert's top is too heavy.
I also see other factors in play, but before getting into that, I have a question for anyone having first-hand experience with a top+table combo that works as well as Cyril's: Do the holes in the sides of the rotors engage the bumpers in any way, however slight?
We  spent hours playing Merdel(Carom) Skittles as kids.  The tops were wooden (smooth sides) but not as tall as Cyril's. They bounced around pretty well. I wish I still had the game.
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