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Author Topic: Problem with S8 owb install  (Read 1117 times)

Mermouy

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Problem with S8 owb install
« on: May 18, 2017, 07:59:35 AM »

Hi everybody!
It has been a while I wanted to post this problem with Strummol8 One Way Bearing install on new (mean newly bought) Giulia as well as the STB2.5 models.
Of course this doesn't happen with last 3.0 Strummol8 as it has it's own tip system...
Problem is: When installing owb on these classical models, after, of course been watching the nice video from Chris Neff on the Strummol8 tip maintenance and change, our owb is simply thinner than the place it should fit in and then simply fall other side.
Here is the video we've made to show this trouble:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0evWMsBMMKE

We must miss something, be stupid or not able to figure this out as it should be, and here's how we figure this out, it's a simple solution using a thin cigarette paper layer added to the bearing, to be able, we sometime need to repeat this procedure if the paper goes away while operating or something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxfvA-cOhhQ

Does anybody ever encounter this kind of problem before, how do you figure this out?
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ta0

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2017, 10:30:33 AM »

What?  :o
The owb should fit tight inside all those tops. I have put owb on many S8 tops (and even the optional crown tip) and never encountered that problem.
Either the tops have a well with a diameter that is too big or the owb is too small. Because it happens on more than one top I would conclude it is the bearing, but that is even more surprising!
Let's see what Maurizio says.

Does the owb tip work well after your "repair" ?
Thanks for posting the video.
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Jack

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2017, 01:06:13 PM »

well this is unexpected @-@
just to clarify: the OWB, like the actual Clutch mechanism came with the strommol8 tip assembly???


your solution to the problem is delicious sir!!!
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MrYo

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2017, 01:33:32 PM »

Hallo, I fear is the last production mistake, the new machinist did not understand how much is importatant the diameter of the hole between the bearings so he machined too fast and a lot of the holes are a bit bigger due to the heat produced. I discovered it very late.
The problem is fixed for the next productions, in the meanwhile i will try to find a solution, not so simple because the difference is really small.

Maurizio
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cecil

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2017, 02:28:47 PM »

I have one four inch top that the bearing is real close - but it will pull out. Tape will work but I use C.A. glue. And you have to be careful.
These are the lines I made for the double body corkscrew.

Spintastic Granda
8 Lydia # 10  x 145 inches

Duncan Ripcord
8 Red Heart # 10 x 133 inches

Spintastic Gladiator
6 Lyida # 10 x 134 inches
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 02:36:45 PM by cecil »
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Mermouy

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2017, 06:15:17 AM »

Thanks to you all for these answers,
At least we're less stupids than expected!

To be clear, I had this problem with all of my Strummol8 and yes the whole system come at once, since I bought/won them rencently (spinning since 2015... So I started to buy S8 only since last year) as well as the owb/tip systems, this production problem explain everything.

The fix we use work pretty nice, sometime the "repair" need to be repeated because the paper goes away between operations, sometime the owb is not really fixed and need few shocks while playing to be really fixed, I guess the paper finds its place itself then. But after a while, it works pretty well.
I wanted to ask this at the eyyc2017, I told about this problem with Daniel and Jakub as they are our main providers, and they as surprised as you, and proposed me to have a look at, but then I/we simply forgot.

Hope our solution can help some people...

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paxl13

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 07:59:45 AM »

Hi y'alls,

Ta0 pointed me to this topic, I've been going mad trying to fix properly my OWB in my Late 2018 Giulia... The solution I came with yesterday afternoon that works quite well is a thin layer of sara wrap... ( food grade plastic wrap )... it's thin enough and easy to cut the exccess... I was planning on doing a video on it but this video kind of does what I wanted to do...

The other thing that should be advertised is how LESS a top with a owb will spin for.. ( my giulia will spin in my hand for rougly 40 sec before dying out )... Which is fine considering that you have to regen a owb top ...

Anyway. To anyone having a S8 owb problem, reach out here ... I'll try to monitor the thread.
I hope Strummol8 resolve the problem in the next production batches ( I'd love to own a properly working stb 2.5 )...

Cheers,
paxl
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Jospin

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 10:31:29 AM »

Ta0 pointed me to this topic, I've been going mad trying to fix properly my OWB in my Late 2018 Giulia... The solution I came with yesterday afternoon that works quite well is a thin layer of sara wrap... ( food grade plastic wrap )... it's thin enough and easy to cut the excess... I was planning on doing a video on it but this video kind of does what I wanted to do...

I like this solution.  The plastic wrap is simple and I would assume it should last a while too.

The other thing that should be advertised is how LESS a top with a owb will spin for.. ( my giulia will spin in my hand for rougly 40 sec before dying out )... Which is fine considering that you have to regen a owb top ...
Sigh... All right, this is incredibly preliminary and mostly based on my single experience making a OWB top, so please take it with a grain of salt.  The listed inner diameter for the OW bearing is 4 mm.  Maurizio has his tips machined to 4 mm (I think mine measured 3.97 mm), which, when you test with the OWB, is kind of tight.  When I was making my own tip, I think I took my axle OWB diameter to 3.8 mm.  I don't think the OWB really affects the spin time too much at that diameter, but sometimes it doesn't lock and sometimes it locks up (basically becomes fixed).  I've been wanting to experiment with different diameters to see what the ideal between preserving spin time and consistency would be, but my setup to make tips is using an angle grinder and a wood lathe, and then files and sandpaper to fine tune things.  It's a lot of effort to get the precision needed, so I haven't experimented.  Long story short, if you are willing/able to sand/grind down the axle to 3.9 mm or so you may dramatically increase your spin time.  Be careful though, if you take off too much you may have to buy a new tip if you ever want to use it for OWB play again.  Also, my own OWB worked great at first, but the finish was rough (used files until I got it to diameter and didn't sand), and now the shaft is almost polished.  I think the OWB smoothed it out and decreased the diameter even more, but I haven't remeasured to see if this is the case.  So if you do reduce the diameter, make sure the finish is smooth for durability.  I'm dreaming of making a OWB Diabolo tip for my Giulia though, so maybe I'll have to take some time to experiment... or I guess could try sanding my own Giulia tip to let you know how good of an idea this would be...

My Homemade OWB top:
http://www.ta0.com/forum/index.php/topic,5531.msg58593.html#msg58593

My OWB top was used for normal bearing top tricks in my Neffy application (it still had the OWB installed).  I used it for the Liberty and Super 8 tricks.  Only about 25 seconds of spin is shown on liberty, but it would have gone for much much longer if I'd have let it.
https://youtu.be/uxXVW4DJh2U?t=32
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paxl13

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2019, 10:59:49 AM »

Hi Jospin!! That's super interesting, It is pretty thigh in there indeed. Because my spin time in my hand are basically reduce to zero ( the 40 sec isn't that much) I'll be able to pull 4, maybe 5 gyroflops before regen... I'd be willing to experiment if I had a lathe because I wouldn't trust me with my getho method ( a drill with the tip into it and some files...) It works wonders to resurface tips but that doesn't need to be precise... But yeah. It is very possible that the 'clutch' interior is 3.95mm while the tip is 4mm which would create a good deal of friction... The other thing is... If the warp has cluged on one side. The hole might not be perfectly centered ( I think it is but since the tip is already maybe too big for the bearing. It can add more friction..

Do you think that would be what would cause you to need to sand down lower than 4mm?
I personally quite like my Giulia with the OWB, plays differently than all my other tops... It's fun and easy to regen that said, if there was a way to get even more spin time, I'd be willing to try it out....

I might plan to buy a lathe next summer ( I don't have any space inside my house for that.) Until then I guess
I'll have to keep my Giulia like that.

If you experiment with that @jospin, keep us posted!
I know Morizzo told me that each and every top don't have the same diameter in the OWB seat... Meaning mine needed only 1 layer of wrap. Other might need more. But sadly what I'm sure is that if that problem wasn't there, it would spin for longer ( because I am sure it's not 100% centered).

Let's keep the discution going, any other with problem and experiences with S8 & OWB?
Cheers,
Paxl
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Jospin

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2019, 11:59:01 AM »

Do you think that would be what would cause you to need to sand down lower than 4mm?
I personally quite like my Giulia with the OWB, plays differently than all my other tops... It's fun and easy to regen that said, if there was a way to get even more spin time, I'd be willing to try it out....

The inner diameter of the bearing is listed at 4 mm, so if you have the shaft right at 4mm it'll be a snug fit, adding friction.  By decreasing the diameter you reduce the friction, but you need to make sure it's still thick enough for the clutch needles to still engage.  When I get some more time I'll probably do some experimenting.
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ta0

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2019, 01:22:12 PM »

That would be some very interesting experiment, Jospin.

I just did some tests with three tops with OWB tips: Giulia, STB3.0 and Chico 2.0.
I threw a boomerang, lassoed them and went directly to a string bind. I could keep the top standing in the bind for 50, 40 and 45 seconds, respectively.
This compares to 1 minute 45 seconds with my everyday Giulia with a banged up bearing tip.
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paxl13

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2019, 01:36:04 PM »

That would be some very interesting experiment, Jospin.

I just did some tests with three tops with OWB tips: Giulia, STB3.0 and Chico 2.0.
I threw a boomerang, lassoed them and went directly to a string bind. I could keep the top standing in the bind for 50, 40 and 45 seconds, respectively.
This compares to 1 minute 45 seconds with my everyday Giulia with a banged up bearing tip.

Nice... that's a nice test... with a non standard string ( thinner, playing around trying to get my snapstart more consistant ) I was able to do 47 & 45s in a string bind... So it's right where it should be by standard!

My Giulia with not too used bearing does 2 min 15 sec. ( not in a string bind tho.. on the hand )
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Jospin

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2019, 11:59:36 AM »

I just tested out my homemade OWB top without the OWB installed (and after replacing a bad bearing).  I got around 2 min 15 sec in hand.  I think I've though about a way to play with the diameter without creating a whole new tip, but I don't know how durable it will be.  That won't matter for tests, so I'll adjust the diameter and let you know the results.  I remeasured and the shaft is still 3.8mm in diameter, so I know that that diameter is too narrow for consistent OWB play.  More updates to come.  Is the lack of spin time the reason OWB tops aren't more common?
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paxl13

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Re: Problem with S8 owb install
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2019, 03:07:55 PM »

I just tested out my homemade OWB top without the OWB installed (and after replacing a bad bearing).  I got around 2 min 15 sec in hand.  I think I've though about a way to play with the diameter without creating a whole new tip, but I don't know how durable it will be.  That won't matter for tests, so I'll adjust the diameter and let you know the results.  I remeasured and the shaft is still 3.8mm in diameter, so I know that that diameter is too narrow for consistent OWB play.  More updates to come.  Is the lack of spin time the reason OWB tops aren't more common?

Possibly. But after having played a LOT ( maybe too much my shoulder is telling me ) my OWB Giulia... man... OWB is the way to play, it's super forgiving and regen like madness ( like 3 RC to string after a snap start and I'm good for 30 sec on my hand )... This is most likely due to the fact that you don't lose any spin when you are not regenerating!

Anyway so I did some test this afternoon. To snapstarts, what I found with my old and used string is that it's easier to snapstart with a smoother string ( at the very least how I do it ). So I did a 3 crochet thread time 3 ply ( for 9 thread total ) That I twisted to rougly half the twist I give it usually. I also used 1 colored thread and 2 whites ( color are usually smoother due to dye ). After breaking it in this string is absolutely wonderful for regens ( with both the giulia & qsh ). It's not that great with baseball hard very very hard throw, it tends to explode instead of unrooling... Anyway so that's my first discovery. I'll be playing with crochet size 20 later on this week ( to see if more smaller is better )...

Second discovery was that the saran wrap method works very well. I OWB'ed a love and it 'worked'. I also figured out how to remove the bearing without hitting on it. you twist it inside of the top using the s8 tool. and pull slowly while twisting.. so that doens't make any damage to the OWB. The problem is that the love doesn't seem heavy enough... I wasn't able to get the OWB to work reliably...

Third thing, OWB seem to break in... I probably played rougly 10h on my OWB now... and its WAY smoother ( I can do easily 50s off a throw into a string bind )... So that's something to take into account.

Anyway
TLDR: lots of information I found, read if interested :)

Cheers,
paxl
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