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Author Topic: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)  (Read 9016 times)

kyo

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2016, 01:21:20 AM »

Quote
Yea, sounds you also have no idea what the plan actually is either.
I really hope those plans are successful. After 3 years out of the US and first time outside Florida (or Hawaii) I would be surprised if it did not have more US participants than ever before. But my guess is that higher fees and earlier deadlines will decrease it from what it could have been. Total attendance is what the business care about.

Not that it matters at all, but it has only been out of the US for two years - Prague and Tokyo.

The fees won't prevent anybody from attending. It might prevent some people from competing, which is fine, because if they aren't that serious about it they probably shouldn't be on stage at a world-level event. If anybody can afford to travel to Cleveland and stay in a hotel for a week, the few bucks it costs to attend isn't the deal breaker.

The city wide school promotion is nice, but you will have to be lucky to get 1 or 2 long term players out of it.

Yea, that's the right attitude, let's not do anything to promote a hobby because it might not get hundreds of players suddenly dedicating their lives to it. Seriously?

____

First off Kyle this is a spin top forum, made up of spin top players and enthusiasts talking about an upcoming spin top contest (Worlds 2016). The forum members talking about the prices for this contest are not "Whining". However, being told to "Shut Up" by you is disrespectful to the members of this forum. After reading all of your posts one would come to the conclusion that you Sir are Whining about how hard it is to organize this Worlds 2016 Contest. Shut the Hell Up and remember it's the contestants that make this event a success, for without the contestants you have no contest.

Yea, they are whining.

"I find these entry fees to compete an absolute nonsense, a genuine rip off"

"Yeah, not liking the rising cost schedule..... seems too cash-grabby to me."

"how about asking him for a 30$ fee instead of 50 $ to compete ? i still think it's over too much!"

There really isn't any other way to read those comments.

This comes up constantly now, complaints from spintop players about how unfair everything is. If tagging a spintop event onto a yo-yo event is so horrible, split off and do something else.. nobody is forcing you to be there. I want what is best for the top spinning community, I really do.. so if you guys think doing your own thing is better, DO IT. Sitting and complaining about being a minor event inside of a large one though, that's unproductive and silly.. it's also a complete slap in the face to everybody who puts in thousands of hours of work to make these events happen.

Kyle
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jim in paris

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2016, 02:48:38 AM »

hello kyo, hello everybody

it seems that your injunction to "shut up" has produced exactly the opposite effect ;D ;D
the debate has opened
so next time instead of "shut up" you could write "chat up"  ???
that said i see your point...i understand the difficulties to organize such an event without any help from the city , the state , the yoyo associations , the grants dedicated to culture, sport and education like we have in europe...

i agree with your last statement about organizing a world spintop contest apart from the yoyo-sphere
that's actually what i'm working on with board of directors


in your first message you mention "hundreds thousand dollars"
is that the budget for the 4 days ?

bye now, good day

jim
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ta0

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2016, 10:59:56 AM »

Kyle, I don't think that you will find many yo-yo forums (I am guessing none) that are more respectful and rational than this forum. We discuss things openly, everyone gives his or her opinion without telling people to shut up. We try to find what works best for the top community. I don't think we have ever whined to the yo-yo contest organizers. On the contrary, I make sure I always thank them when I go to a contest. And we try to help in what we can. What you call whining are discussions among ourselves about things we do not like or could be improved from our stand point. We have been considering for several years the possibility of splitting from yo-yoing but the decision has been made to the contrary so far, after reviewing the pros and cons. We will continue reviewing our best moves in the future.

Not that it matters at all, but it has only been out of the US for two years - Prague and Tokyo.
From August 2013 until August 2016 it will have been 3 full years that the US players who could not travel internationally had to wait to compete at worlds.

The fees won't prevent anybody from attending. It might prevent some people from competing, which is fine, because if they aren't that serious about it they probably shouldn't be on stage at a world-level event. If anybody can afford to travel to Cleveland and stay in a hotel for a week, the few bucks it costs to attend isn't the deal breaker.
Not a few bucks. Not everyone would have gone to the official hotel or flown. I remember players sleeping under the stage at the Rosen or in cars in the parking lot. I am certain that many people will be discouraged of going (for a great many, competing is a big part of going). I know for a fact that we are going to lose spintop bona fide competitors because of the early deadlines.

Yea, that's the right attitude, let's not do anything to promote a hobby because it might not get hundreds of players suddenly dedicating their lives to it. Seriously?
I said it was a nice idea. I did not say it shouldn't be done. I just said that it was not going to be very effective in getting many long term players.

in your first message you mention "hundreds thousand dollars"
is that the budget for the 4 days ?
What I heard in Tokyo was that it cost between 200 and 250 k. They had three floors in a corner building in a prime spot in Tokyo, with an open first floor to a major avenue, with more foot traffic in an hour than all Cleveland downtown gets in a week.  It lasted one more day than Cleveland. They had shows by a professional popular group every day, etc. I cannot see Cleveland costing as much. But Tokyo was fully organized by the Japanese association (a non profit) while I imagine Steve gets some profit if things go well (and he deserves it) and could lose money if things go bad.
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the Earl of Whirl

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2016, 03:51:19 PM »

Just for the record, I never slept under the stage at worlds.  Well......I never slept all night under the stage.  I did take a couple naps there, though.  Actually, I was thinking about taking a nap there in Cleveland for old time sake!!!
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Jack

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2016, 04:01:53 PM »

Just for the record, I never slept under the stage at worlds.  Well......I never slept all night under the stage.  I did take a couple naps there, though.  Actually, I was thinking about taking a nap there in Cleveland for old time sake!!!

whatever the world says mike......you take take that nap, you take that nap under that stage for old times sake like a boss  >:(
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the Earl of Whirl

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2016, 04:17:52 PM »

I am one with the stage!!!
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Jack

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2016, 04:42:30 PM »

I am one with the stage!!!



get it??? nudge nudge wink wink  ;D
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Kirk

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2016, 05:12:19 PM »

Kyo,
It seems that you are very passionate about the topic of contests.  That passion seems to fuel a need to have all people agree with you. 

As a business owner I too have had folks tell me all sorts of stuff about our prices and business practices.  We have been told that our prices are everything from reasonable to exorbitant and our practices are either difficult to deal with or customer service centric.  What is the difference?  It is in the perspective of the individual.  Some folks will become clients of ours. Some will understand our positions, yet not become clients. (usually for reasons of price)

May I respectfully suggest that vitriolic prose is unlikely to bring about widespread agreement on any topic. (far less so the topic of money)  You have clearly thought a great deal about these topics. Perhaps some of your perspectives and insight can be useful to many of us.  I am reminded of the old saying, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

Now that passions have been vented, I hope that the time has come to end the flame war and move on to things that spin.
Thanks
Kirk
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kyo

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2016, 07:19:54 PM »

Kyle, I don't think that you will find many yo-yo forums (I am guessing none) that are more respectful and rational than this forum. We discuss things openly, everyone gives his or her opinion without telling people to shut up. We try to find what works best for the top community. I don't think we have ever whined to the yo-yo contest organizers. On the contrary, I make sure I always thank them when I go to a contest. And we try to help in what we can. What you call whining are discussions among ourselves about things we do not like or could be improved from our stand point. We have been considering for several years the possibility of splitting from yo-yoing but the decision has been made to the contrary so far, after reviewing the pros and cons. We will continue reviewing our best moves in the future.

Complaints about how things are a "rip off" is a complaint, period. Especially when paired with exactly no helpful input.

Not a few bucks. Not everyone would have gone to the official hotel or flown. I remember players sleeping under the stage at the Rosen or in cars in the parking lot. I am certain that many people will be discouraged of going (for a great many, competing is a big part of going). I know for a fact that we are going to lose spintop bona fide competitors because of the early deadlines.

One or two people sleeping under a stage in the history of the event, not exactly a significant figure. Most reports of it were people who were either too tired or too drunk to make it back to their rooms.. which they had. Registration fees to attend are very small, competition is and SHOULD be reserved for serious competitors able to compete at a world level. This isn't a local club contest, it's a WORLD championship.

I said it was a nice idea. I did not say it shouldn't be done. I just said that it was not going to be very effective in getting many long term players.

So your plan is....  oh, nothing? more whining about how small the community is? How's that going so far?

What I heard in Tokyo was that it cost between 200 and 250 k. They had three floors in a corner building in a prime spot in Tokyo, with an open first floor to a major avenue, with more foot traffic in an hour than all Cleveland downtown gets in a week.  It lasted one more day than Cleveland. They had shows by a professional popular group every day, etc. I cannot see Cleveland costing as much. But Tokyo was fully organized by the Japanese association (a non profit) while I imagine Steve gets some profit if things go well (and he deserves it) and could lose money if things go bad.

That's the right range, and no, Cleveland probably won't be 'as' expensive.. but even the cheapest Rosen contests were insanely expensive. Also do NOT confuse "non profit" with "not paid".. those are no the same thing. I can assure you that people made money on doing it, as they should after spending -thousands- of hours organizing it.

Kyo,
It seems that you are very passionate about the topic of contests.  That passion seems to fuel a need to have all people agree with you. 

As a business owner I too have had folks tell me all sorts of stuff about our prices and business practices.  We have been told that our prices are everything from reasonable to exorbitant and our practices are either difficult to deal with or customer service centric.  What is the difference?  It is in the perspective of the individual.  Some folks will become clients of ours. Some will understand our positions, yet not become clients. (usually for reasons of price)

May I respectfully suggest that vitriolic prose is unlikely to bring about widespread agreement on any topic. (far less so the topic of money)  You have clearly thought a great deal about these topics. Perhaps some of your perspectives and insight can be useful to many of us.  I am reminded of the old saying, "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

Now that passions have been vented, I hope that the time has come to end the flame war and move on to things that spin.
Thanks
Kirk

I'm passionate about not spitting at people when they do all the work for you. I don't particularly care if anybody 'agrees' with me, I'm not actually trying to convince anybody of anything. I do however, take offense at the constant barrage of complaints that come up here before basically every world or national contest.. it has been happening for years. They tend to range from 'we aren't being taken seriously' to 'why aren't we getting more time' to 'why are we being charged for things' to 'why aren't they more excited about helping us'. All of those are the same thing.. people complaining about getting work done for them.

I've been heavily involved in the world yoyo contest for many years now, from 2005-20013 I ran all the workshops and directly helped organize and work the contest.. this year I'm running and organizing the maker space. I'm also a Gold Level sponsor of the event. During all that time, I fought hard to get spintops attention, to get them stage time, to get them promoted. I had literal arguments where I was being yelled at trying to convince the people in charge to make sure the spin top contest remained on the main stage during worlds despite having awful (<10 people) turnout and virtually no audience attention. So yea, I take offense when people who do nothing to organize the event sit behind a computer screen and whine about it.. especially when it's the same people that are supposedly trying to grow the community.

Also, you've never tried catching flies.. vinegar works WAY better than honey :)

Kyle
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ta0

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2016, 08:32:44 PM »

Kyo, we appreciate that you fought for tops.  :)
Just to clarify, several of the people here, put a lot of work for tops. And most of us are pure amateurs and make no money out of it (just spend it  ::) ). We are not just kidos writing opinions behind a computer we do much more than you realize. In particular, we have supported the spintop part of the yo-yo world and US nats contests, with money and time over the years (in Jim's case without ever having been to one).
The decision to get offended by our discussions is solely yours. This is a spintop board and you will read the perspective of the spinning top community.
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Jack

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2016, 09:03:38 PM »

not to toot my own horn here but may i point out that i believe that i could give many players a run for their money in competion, that does not however mean that on my fixed disability income i can afford $160 plus whatever the hell it takes to get down there eh.
so before one goes on about how advanced players should be the only players allowed to compete and having a monatary requirement in place to enforce that rule.......
so sayeth jack
please dont eat me
i love you kyo


also dont get me started on flys, there was an epidemic and they just would not leeeeeave the house dammit, days upon days of swatting green flys i hate them i hate them ill kill them all dammit!!!!
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 09:05:43 PM by Jack »
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Jack

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2016, 09:09:54 PM »

im not saying players should be freeloaders but i think the cost should be low enough for the little guys to compete aswell eh
at the end of the day i havnt spun tops for 15 years because i wanted to crush the competition and compete on a diamond studded stage with show girls hanging from trapezes with lions roaring beside me............ i do it because its my love  ::)
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Shootist

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2016, 11:25:33 PM »

Jack, you can toot your horn here, I've watched your videos and your spin top play is good.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2016, 11:27:36 PM by Shootist »
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Jack

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2016, 11:09:47 AM »

Jack, you can toot your horn here, I've watched your videos and your spin top play is good.

thank you sir  ;D
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kyo

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Re: Cost of worlds discussion (split topic)
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2016, 11:22:45 PM »

not to toot my own horn here but may i point out that i believe that i could give many players a run for their money in competion, that does not however mean that on my fixed disability income i can afford $160 plus whatever the hell it takes to get down there eh.
so before one goes on about how advanced players should be the only players allowed to compete and having a monatary requirement in place to enforce that rule.......

Emphasis added.

The contest fee isn't the killer, it's the huge cost associated with getting to an event like this. I agree that part is difficult, but there isn't really anything to be done about travel costs. If any yoyo player that could truly compete for a top finish at the world contest could get to the contest but just couldn't afford the entry fee, I'm quite sure somebody (me) would step up and pay it.. I would imagine the same could be worked out for spin tops.

Perhaps more time should be spent on figuring out how to get competitors and an audience rather than complaining about fees being a "rip off".. at some point spin tops may have to split from yo-yos be it by choice or not if we can't get more people involved.

Kyle
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