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[Gustin Joss]

Dick, your second sentence is perfect. It sums up why we should defect. I truly believe that Yoyos are more popular because they are easier to use initially, and kids are lazy and expect instant gratification. It does not help that the only national top seller provides inadequate strings that immediately cause kids to give up in frustration. Dale and I helped several kids at Nats who came over with fresh BKs from the Duncan booth by throwing away their string and giving them longer, better string. Most of the kids were climbing the beginner ladder by the end of the day. Spinners took only a few tries to learn. But, I repeat myself.

[Dick Stohr]

Please do not stop at the second sentence.  I really am interested in what Diabolo had and did.

[poptop]

I drop tops without shame.   

In my world of playing tops for fun, sport, entertainment, and friendship, I simply don't worry that much about drops.  At present, top spinning is definitely less competitive, less polished than yo-yo play/competition; fair enough...

I do think Jim's' point is valid, if you are doing "professional performance", it's not so impressive to drop.  I admire this, but it's not my gig.

I'm sure my scores could be better if I didn't drop, but I know I'll be better off in the long run if i just keep trying to land tricks and improve my skills.  I suppose these things are all related.

[ta0]

Please do not stop at the second sentence.  I really am interested in what Diabolo had and did.

There was no diabolo contest, none. In fact, I don't recall anybody playing with diabolo (if you don't count my kongzhu.) When I met Stu on Friday he said he was not going to have a diabolo ladder this year, but I did not asked him why.

[the Earl of Whirl]

I drop tops without shame.  I love that quote!  That should be near your stuff in the hall of fame!!!  What a great quote, poptop.  Thanks.

Since we are so close to Reformation Sunday and lots of talk about Martin Luther in our churches I would love to share one of his quotes.....sin boldly.  Sounds very close to I drop tops without shame!

[Jon Gates]

"OK, not to defend Bob because he does not need it.  He is running THE NATIONAL YO-YO CONTEST.  He is interested in choosing the 5 National Yo-Yo Champions and anything that makes the contest entertaining.  Think of how many players there were in all 5 divisions and the time required to put them all on the big stage for 3 minutes.  Just like Worlds, as the sport grew the stage time became an issue and required ways to limit the number of players for the larger divisions.  Nationals is a one day contest because the players are in school.  So a little perspective, I was not there so please tell me - Did Diabolo have a stage and sound system?  Did Diabolo have any time on the big stage?  Was it entertaining?  Jim is correct, is our top contest as entertaining as it should be?  Do the players do a clean performance?  i.e. no drops?  Yes, yo-yo players knot strings and change yo-yos, but if so do they usually win?  Spin Top play, in my mind, is where yo-yo play was in the late 1990's.  We can grow it as large as we want but it takes time, more players, more interest, and leadership that comes from the manufacturers as well as within the players.  It seems like other countries manufacturers are out there pushing and the US companies are waiting for the first fad to jump in.  Hope this starts more discussion."

I agree with Dick on this.

I feel that Our presence at the national yo-yo contest is as it should be. Players should not be "ashamed" of dropping but that still will not qualify them to be on the main stage.
Bob and the NYYL provides the space, 4" stage and the awards for our contest. I personally am grateful for what they do provide. A back drop and Logo would make things better (and a working sound system).
All I'm saying is, moving the the national spintop contest away from Chico is not the right move. and I would love to see the skill of all competitors to be at the level that need to be on the main stage.
Last year Darren did a repeat demo of his winning freestyle on the main stage, this year I didn't feel like doing a 2nd freestyle so we didn't get spintops on the main stage. This was not Bobs idea but mine. If I had asked I'm sure he would have let me freestyle. So please don't blame Bob for top players not being on the main stage this year. If you feel you need to throw blame, do it in my direction.

Thanks to Dale Oliver and Ta0 for steeping up and running this contest in Alan Grey's absence.
As far as I know Alan Grey is still the director of the national spintop contest and it would be his decision if it is going to be moved.
IMO:
We need to organize more contest not move the ones we have. except worlds, that needs to go to Prague with next years world yo-yo contest :-)
The NYYL would be a great way to get spintops at regional yo-yo contest.
Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water!

[Gustin Joss]

"OK, not to defend Bob because he does not need it.  He is running THE NATIONAL YO-YO CONTEST.  He is interested in choosing the 5 National Yo-Yo Champions and anything that makes the contest entertaining.  Think of how many players there were in all 5 divisions and the time required to put them all on the big stage for 3 minutes.  Just like Worlds, as the sport grew the stage time became an issue and required ways to limit the number of players for the larger divisions.  Nationals is a one day contest because the players are in school.  So a little perspective, I was not there so please tell me - Did Diabolo have a stage and sound system?  Did Diabolo have any time on the big stage?  Was it entertaining?  Jim is correct, is our top contest as entertaining as it should be?  Do the players do a clean performance?  i.e. no drops?  Yes, yo-yo players knot strings and change yo-yos, but if so do they usually win?  Spin Top play, in my mind, is where yo-yo play was in the late 1990's.  We can grow it as large as we want but it takes time, more players, more interest, and leadership that comes from the manufacturers as well as within the players.  It seems like other countries manufacturers are out there pushing and the US companies are waiting for the first fad to jump in.  Hope this starts more discussion."

I agree with Dick on this.

I feel that Our presence at the national yo-yo contest is as it should be. Players should not be "ashamed" of dropping but that still will not qualify them to be on the main stage.
Bob and the NYYL provides the space, 4" stage and the awards for our contest. I personally am grateful for what they do provide. A back drop and Logo would make things better (and a working sound system).
All I'm saying is, moving the the national spintop contest away from Chico is not the right move. and I would love to see the skill of all competitors to be at the level that need to be on the main stage.
Last year Darren did a repeat demo of his winning freestyle on the main stage, this year I didn't feel like doing a 2nd freestyle so we didn't get spintops on the main stage. This was not Bobs idea but mine. If I had asked I'm sure he would have let me freestyle. So please don't blame Bob for top players not being on the main stage this year. If you feel you need to throw blame, do it in my direction.

Thanks to Dale Oliver and Ta0 for steeping up and running this contest in Alan Grey's absence.
As far as I know Alan Grey is still the director of the national spintop contest and it would be his decision if it is going to be moved.
IMO:
We need to organize more contest not move the ones we have. except worlds, that needs to go to Prague with next years world yo-yo contest :-)
The NYYL would be a great way to get spintops at regional yo-yo contest.
Lets not throw the baby out with the bath water!

Jon, you are the man, but you are also on the inside. You are a well known member of the spin top and yoyo community. You are sponsored and got to kick it in a shady sponsor tent. You have your name in plastic. That is forever.

Frankly, I was embarrassed when my family showed up to see our setup after I had talked about how great I had heard the competition would be. I mean, it took me a year to convince my parents that playing tops was a legitimate pastime. I almost had them convinced by practicing my routine to music for them a few times and then 45 seconds into the actual competition, the sound crapped out. To be honest, all I wanted to do at that point was take a half step off of the piece of plywood and leave. The highlight of the day was watching you play and meeting and hanging out with Brian. In hindsight, I wish I would not have competed at all. I think my experience would have been much more enjoyable. When you combine all of this with ambiguous rules for both top-related competitions...well, I don't even know what to say. I was just genuinely disappointed. The medals were nice, though they appeared to be leftover yoyo participation medals with a round sticker on the back that said:

"2nd place
National
Spin top
Champion
Ship"

I did not receive any kind of ship. That would have been cool. At least you get to spend a year with one of the coolest tops on the planet. Though, I do recall you saying that part of you didn't want to win because you didn't want to lug it back to CO.

I just think we can do better for ourselves and I am totally willing to put in work to make a true competition happen. I mean, I can't tell people I got second at nationals. There were three of us and I can think of ten people in the US who would have kicked my ass if they'd been there. Heck, nine times out of ten, Brian would have beaten me. By the way, I would have been more than happy to demo my routine with a working sound system in your stead. I wish you would have said something at the time. I think it would have been more fun than performing in front of a group of skeptical, non-cheering family members.

I just re-read this and I sound whiny, but I will post it anyway. No disrespect meant to anyone.

[ta0]

The last three years I have felt bad for the contestants: my proudest spintop photo is the one jumping the top on the main nats stage with its very impressive backdrop.  I also felt bad for your family, SirBoot.  And that was my main motivation in changing the retrieval rule on the fly.

I know I did as much as I could for the contest but on the other hand I am sorry if I oversold it and caused disappointments .  It is the-chicken-and-the-egg thing.

I just think we can do better for ourselves and I am totally willing to put in work to make a true competition happen.

We need to decide on a location for the 2013 US Spintop Open, and we'll make it happen 

[the Earl of Whirl]

I know it takes time and effort for people to share their feelings here, but I think this is good information.  I appreciate everyone giving their "spin" on things.  It is a good discussion.

[Spinningray]

Wish I could have attended this year. Hopefully next year. The distance is far and the cost to attend is higher each year. Nationals will always be in Chico for as long as they are willing to have the contest.
We have been lucky that Bob and Thad have continued to provide a National Spin Top Contest for us to enjoy, even though they may show less enthusiasm for it. They have been very generous with the metals and trophies, although they could pay better attention to detail. SirBoot - The inscription on the back of your medal is disappointing. I'm sorry to hear of your Nationals experience. I'm not sure that there have ever been any National Spin Top Contest specific metals. They have always been with the YoYo Contest logo. Spin Top logo medals would be very cool but much more expensive.
I carried the sound system to the performance area all by myself for two years. It was quite heavy. They do carry it back on the truck with the rest of the gear. That is very disappointing too. Will have to get something new setup for next year ahead of time.
The 2011 freestyle rules were still setup for a main stage performance. I would be fine if the contestant wanted to freestyle over grass rather than the wood stage. Tops should be retrievable by the player only. No assistance.

There are no limits to the number of Spin Top contests that can take place per year. The more we have the better. It is always fun when we can get together and show each other new tricks. It may take a culture change before many people get really interested in spin tops. Hopefully, the economy will improve soon.

[Gustin Joss]

Wish I could have attended this year. Hopefully next year. The distance is far and the cost to attend is higher each year. Nationals will always be in Chico for as long as they are willing to have the contest.
We have been lucky that Bob and Thad have continued to provide a National Spin Top Contest for us to enjoy, even though they may show less enthusiasm for it. They have been very generous with the metals and trophies, although they could pay better attention to detail. SirBoot - The inscription on the back of your medal is disappointing. I'm sorry to hear of your Nationals experience. I'm not sure that there have ever been any National Spin Top Contest specific metals. They have always been with the YoYo Contest logo. Spin Top logo medals would be very cool but much more expensive.
I carried the sound system to the performance area all by myself for two years. It was quite heavy. They do carry it back on the truck with the rest of the gear. That is very disappointing too. Will have to get something new setup for next year ahead of time.
The 2011 freestyle rules were still setup for a main stage performance. I would be fine if the contestant wanted to freestyle over grass rather than the wood stage. Tops should be retrievable by the player only. No assistance.

There are no limits to the number of Spin Top contests that can take place per year. The more we have the better. It is always fun when we can get together and show each other new tricks. It may take a culture change before many people get really interested in spin tops. Hopefully, the economy will improve soon.

This is a very positive and encouraging post. Thanks for writing it.

[NickC]

Hi, everybody! 

This is Nick Civitello from Kansas City chiming in on behalf of the Kansas City Juggling Festival.  We discussed the your situation and I would like to extend an invitation for you to consider the future hosting of your event at the Kansas City Juggling Festival. 

Currently, the KC Fest brings in more than 200 skilly enthusiasts from all over the country, including yo-yoers, diabolers and top spinners.  Our well-reviewed main festival show has featured both yo-yos and spin tops more than once.  The event itself is free, however the main show we produce has a ticket fee.  We pride ourselves on variety and exposing people to new and fun things.  Your top competition would be a great addition to what we already do and it would be a good fit in the way we like to do things here.  We get a lot of media coverage, too, so hopefully this could help grow interest in top spinning in general. 

If we could assist in hosting your contest, we would like to make it a featured event.   It is something new and different for most attendees and we think it would drum up a lot of interest.  We also have a growing number of top throwers in the Kansas City area and they would enjoy the opportunity to see an event like this.  We don’t know what you would need from us but we are happy to provide anything that we can.  The venue would be free and you would have access to anything we have, including sound systems.  We would even like to have a featured top spinner in our main show again. 

It would also be great if you were interested in hosting some top spinning workshops for the festival participants.  We think a lot more people would be interested if they had somebody to show them how it’s done.  We also feel that top spinning is a better fit at a juggling festival because of the jugglers’ willingness to try new and challenging things.  We don’t just want to help host your contest but help grow the top spinning community in general. 

Please let me know what you think and feel free to contact me any time. 
Thanks!

[Gustin Joss]

YES! Personally, I am very excited about this opportunity.

[lincolnrick]

Nick and I talked about this subject this last weekend at the St. Louis juggling festival, and I'm happy he's joined the forum.  Welcome Nick!!  You can spend a lot of time digging into some of the threads here and will be amazed at some the things we've done.  Check out the fire thread!!

I hope we can include Nicks invitation in our discussion of future contests, whether they're national, regional, state, city, or whatever.  I can vouch for their festival, it's a blast.  And Nicks no slouch as a spinner too.   

[ta0]

Sounds like a great venue!

One problem for a major US contest may be the dates.  I saw that this year it took place August 31st - September 2nd.  It would be nice to have a major contest before the world contests (either one  ) which take place the first or second week of August (next year the 8th through 10th). It also almost overlaps the Miamisburg festival (August 24th next year).  I think June would be the ideal time for a US Open.

But it does look like a super location to spin tops.  From what you say it sounds that it would be very receptive to our community. Kansas City is centrally located in the US, what is important in an era of expensive transportation.  Is the venue all indoors?  Is there a zone with floors that would be kind to tops?