iTopSpin
Current Posts => Collecting, Modding, Turning and Spin Science => Topic started by: ta0 on July 11, 2009, 09:25:38 AM
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Silvertop (Don) asked about the Fountain Top.
The Fountain Top was always my holy grail of top collecting. I have a magazine ad for one, but never saw one. I love the box - that is the image I have - but that top in the picture does not look like the right top? The Fountain Top would suck up water from a shallow plate, etc. and blow the water out the top of the stem. My understanding is that the fountain top was cast iron. It would need a lot of weight to spin very long in water and to blow water out the top of the stem .... obviously the image in the picture is a vast exaggeration! I always figured that the combination of cast iron and water accounted for m never finding one! Does anyone have confirmation that the top and the box in the picture go together? It does not look like it would even fit in that box?
Yes, that is a picture of the real thing with its box. It is in the collection of Cyril Mermilliod and I had the opportunity to see it last month. I did not see it working but Jim did: after all these years it can still throw water.
(http://www.ta0.com/museum/images/other_tops/fountain_top.jpg)
{Below is stuff that I posted last year on the old board.}
I found in searching the archives of La Nature the description of the "hydraulic," "water-jet," or "fountain" top:
http://cnum.cnam.fr/CGI/sresrech.cgi?4KY28.33/0164
I don't think I fully understand how it works (even more, I am surprised it works at all).
Anyway, from what I gather, below the flywheel (that it is started with a string) there is a chamber where small rotating vanes create a relative vacuum at the bottom. The vacuum sucks water into the chamber from below. It also sucks air from a side hole (Venturi?) and blows it towards the top, carrying the water with it.
At first I thought it was a stretch to call it a top. But I guess that if the thing falls over when the flywheel loses its spin , it is in fact a top. According to the text, the rubber feet is so the top doesn't wander around and produces a steady jet.
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A video of this top spinning with water was the top of the cake of your spining top travel. :-D
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I think I'm more excited about the box than the top!
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Amazing!!!!
thanks!!!
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SPINNING.TOP.Ezra/
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What a neat top! I noticed the term "La force centrifuge" in the french article and that makes me think it's some kind of vertical centrifugal pump.
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Anyway, from what I gather, below the flywheel (that it is started with a string) there is a chamber where small rotating vanes create a relative vacuum at the bottom. The vacuum sucks water into the chamber from below. It also sucks air from a side hole (Venturi?) and blows it towards the top, carrying the water with it.
Fabulous top, ta0! Would love to see it in action.
The linked cross-section favors Russpin, I think. The fountain top is probably a centrifugal pump driven mainly by the hydrodynamics -- i.e., without much of a pneumatic contribution. Centrifugal force drives water into the most outboard corner of the flywheel reservoir. The fountain inlet sits nearby. Inlet water pressure begins to rise when the water building up in this corner finally covers the inlet. The fountain discharges at any spin rate that raises inlet water pressure above the hydrostatic back-pressure there. In this interpretation, the air vents maximize the net head by allowing air to replace water driven out of the reservoir (by centrifugal force acting mostly on the water).
By the same mechanism, this top might also pump a little air when dry.
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Could the vanes at the bottom of the flywheel be there just to prime the flywheel reservoir? Are they submerged when the top starts?
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The French description is very explicit about the vanes making the air rotate and this creating a vacuum which in turn creates suction of the water from the plate (the air also enters through that end, so I guess it is not submerged). It says that the rotating air meets the static horizontal tube, with some inlet, and it is forced out of the vertical pipe. On the other hand, it also says that the water follows the same path, what to me means that the water once sucked inside will be subject to much higher centripetal and inertial forces. Perhaps the fountain stream is only a spray? That would explain that the top can spin for some amount of time without being killed by all the energy transferred to the water. On the other hand, the explanation on the article could be wrong. If I was designing this, I would make a turbine in which the water is spun at the same time as the top is started.
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Perhaps the air discharge is just a transient used to start the water flow. The illustrations show more a solid stream than a spray at the outlet. The narrow outlet orifice probably causes it to diverge from there.
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Very interesting, but still I don't understand how it works.
The base and the inside of the top with the horizontal pipe "C" are steady and do not spin.
If the lower part of the spinning part of the top is submerged in water, I can understand how water can reach the inside vane, by centrifugal force. But it is less clear how, from there, water is then pressurized into the "C" pipe enough to create a 1 meter gush.
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I think we're missing important details at the bottom of the flywheel reservoir -- especially WRT how water gets into the reservoir in the first place. However, I still like my centrifugal water pressurization mechanism once water gets inside.
I don't think it matters much that the fountain inlet "C" doesn't turn with the reservoir, as the water will layer out circumferentially along the upper inside wall at speed, and the inlet will be there to tap it.
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I think we're missing important details at the bottom of the flywheel reservoir -- especially WRT how water gets into the reservoir in the first place. However, I still like my centrifugal water pressurization mechanism once water gets inside.
I don't think it matters much that the fountain inlet "C" doesn't turn with the reservoir, as the water will layer out circumferentially along the upper inside wall at speed, and the inlet will be there to tap it.
I agree that we are missing details. Perhaps Jim can add something as I believe he saw Cyril's work. A video would be great! Lourens perhaps? ;)
But I think that the C tube needs to be static (as described). If it rotated with the flywheel, any pressure at the rim due to centripetal force would be lost by the fluid while getting back to the axis of rotation.
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One sold at Christie's for 1010 USD ! but it came with the original wooden printing block for the catalog illustration depicting boy playing with this top.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/the-fountain-top-1915109-details.aspx?from=salesummery&intobjectid=1915109&sid=a8125feb-946b-4571-91f2-20ad463aab10 (http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/the-fountain-top-1915109-details.aspx?from=salesummery&intobjectid=1915109&sid=a8125feb-946b-4571-91f2-20ad463aab10)
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I have made a copy of one side of the box of my fountain top. This shows the instructions. Maybe it helps and answers some questions.
The top 'sucks' vacuum with a worm wheel. I will try to make mine work tomorrow and try to make 9and upload!!) a short video if this does not explains enough.
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salut la compagnie
j'ai appelé Cyril
il va m'envoyer une video
et l'éclaté paru dans Nature
i called Cyril
he sends me a vid and the drawing published in Nature
:D :D
jim
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Jim already has a video he will be posting later ;D. Cyril's still works well, although the height is not what it is implied on the box drawing (thanks Cyril and Jim):
(http://ta0.com/museum/images/Cyril/The-fountain-top_box-detail_small.jpg)
The drawing of La Nature for reference:
(http://ta0.com/museum/images/Cyril/The-fountain-top_Nature_small.jpg)
I wish old British patents were available online as the US Patents are. I wonder how difficult they are to get. This one has the low number 3,597.
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here is the vid
filmed by Cyril late last night , just for our entertainment!!
it does makes a shower ;D ;D
https://youtu.be/XQnrIlJsPYQ
jim
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Today I made also a video of the fountain top spinning in water. My problem was that the axe is not quite straight so that influences the spinning and perhaps also the height of the fountain. The water is sprayes aside quite far (Ø 70 cm) and the height was humble, 35 cm). An other difficulty is make the fountain visible at the video. Clear water is clear water and my background was white! So, the next attempt will be with a dark background or using coloured water. To be continued!
... Or not to be! Cyril posted his video at the same time I wrote this comment. His fountain top does exactly the same as mine but it is better visible because of the black background.
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Thank you both for bringing us this marvel of engineering!
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here is the vid
filmed by Cyril late last night , just for our entertainment!!
it does makes a shower ;D ;D
jim
Great video! Thanks for posting! I wonder if spinning by a string could make the water go even higher.
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NICE! It is so wonderful to see this legend of top collecting in action! 8)
Lourens: I would still like to see the video that you filmed, even if the water is not very visible.
Did you spin it on a plate of that period by any chance? ;)
I bet this is the first time in 100 years that two of these tops are played the same day.
I have some questions:
Is the opening completely submerged? Does any air enter through there?
Does it blow substantial air if spun dry?
The article in La Nature specifically mentions that the rubber foot fixes itself to the plate and stops the top from wandering and wetting all over. I guess any rubber on the stand has dried up long ago.
I wonder if spinning by a string could make the water go even higher.
It was spun using a string.
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this thread is bringing me much joy ;D
that thing is an engineering marvel eh!!!
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Incredible! Thanks for showing that in action!
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What a fine puzzle! Many thanks to ta0, Jim, Cyril, and Lourens for the data points to ponder. What we could really use now are some close-up photos of (a) the "water intake" at the bottom of the "rotor" (spinning assembly) just above label "B", and (b) the rotor "side hole" described in ta0's opening post.
For Cyril: Can you tell where that side hole leads? Can you tell when air enters it? Do you ever see water coming out of it? What happens when you tape over the side hole? Any and all answers greatly appreciated.
One interpretation of drawings and video: Consider 4 main "stages" of fountain top operation: (i) "Spin-up". (ii) "Air fountain" (string release to moment of water intake immersion). (iii) "Priming" (of water flow). (iv) "Water fountain" (little if any air flow).
The self-priming air fountain forms spontaneously during spin-up under centrifugal force and peaks in flow at string release. Air leaving the top at the fountain outlet just above label "D" during the air fountain stage enters primarily via the water intake. Air entering the water intake begins to entrain water as the intake submerges. This initial water charge kicks off the transitional priming stage, which ends with establishment of hydraulic continuity between the external water reservoir and the water fountain outlet. The water fountain stage is then fully developed.
What goes on inside the rotor reservoir "R" during priming phase is probably pretty complicated -- especially if air enters the side hole during this time. If air enters the side hole during water fountain stage, it may serve to aerate the water entering the fountain inlet "C". Reducing the average density of the discharged water in this way would effectively reduce the hydraulic head that must be overcome during water fountain stage.
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I am sorry for the confusion. My initial description was wrong. There is no external side hole. Only a hole at the end of the pipe, but still internal to the reservoir.
I think your priming theory followed by a purely hydraulic stage is probably correct.
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What if it is very simple? When water enters the bottom hole it spins with the inside of the chamber and centrifugal force makes it climb the wall. When enough water pools at the largest diameter it is forced into the tube that goes to the outlet with enough force to make the spray.
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What if it is very simple? When water enters the bottom hole it spins with the inside of the chamber and centrifugal force makes it climb the wall. When enough water pools at the largest diameter it is forced into the tube that goes to the outlet with enough force to make the spray.
Absolutely right, Dick: It is that simple during the final stage of steady water fountain flow. But things aren't so simple during the water priming stage that comes before. The strong air-water interactions characterizing this phase begin when the water inlet first goes under and end when the water fountain achieves steady flow.
Just because it's fun to think about, I still have a few questions: (i) Air and water intake design, (ii) how air flow established prior to immersion actually primes the pump, and (iii) the air-water mix at the fountain outlet during water fountain steady flow. Guessing that the answer to (iii) is close to 0%.
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I think air has nothing to do with it. I have an enclosed top with fluid about 1/3 full. when the ripcord is pulled all of the fluid goes to the largest diameter and stays as long as the top spins. So there is no "priming". Any fluid on the inside of the chamber is forced to spin with the moving surface by friction and it rides up the sloping side by centrifugal force.
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I think air has nothing to do with it. I have an enclosed top with fluid about 1/3 full. when the ripcord is pulled all of the fluid goes to the largest diameter and stays as long as the top spins. So there is no "priming". Any fluid on the inside of the chamber is forced to spin with the moving surface by friction and it rides up the sloping side by centrifugal force.
I have no doubt that that's what happens to water already in the reservoir. However, I'd still like to see the intakes.
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I admit that I do not know but I would bet that it is just a hole that must be completely under water to start and to continue supplying the water up to the spray section.
Jim can you shed some light on this? How deep was the water for the tests/videos you guys did? And did the bottom hole remain completely under water while the spray was active and did the spray stop when the water was lower that the hole?
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The drawing cross section shows a tube wall going vertical some distance before reaching the reservoir. The French description says that vacuum is created inside that suctions the water. All this seems reasonable to me but I agree with Jeremy that this is just a transient regime until the path between the surface of the water and the reservoir is filled by the water flow.
I kind of like that the top in Cyril's video and also in Lourens description, wobbles (precesses.) That is more like what I would expect for a top to do.
Unfortunately, you cannot replace the foot by a point because the inner radial tube needs to be static (or at least spinning much slower than the flywheel) for the fountain to work. Therefore, by the strict definition of Cyril himself (that I share) it is not a true top: a true top needs to fall down when not spinning.
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Interesante post y maravilloso vídeo.
Jorge ¿Estás intentando copiar este trompo ante la imposibilidad de conseguir uno que funcione?
Interesting post and wonderful video.
Jorge Are you trying to copy this top because you can not get one that works?
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I post 4 detailed photos of my fountain top. I hope that it helps answere some questions about how the top works and the mix of air and water.
The first picture shows the foot of the top. I have put the top in 25 mm of water. The foot has a Ø of 20 mm.
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The second photo shows the part of the top from foot to reservoir. Hhe water is sucked to the reservoir. Height from foot to top of reservoir is 35 mm.
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The third photo shows the very small pinhole on top of the flat red upper part of the reservoir. In my opinion to let in air that is mixed with the water. Height from this part of the top to the fountain spray is 55 mm.
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The fourth photo shows the opening for the fountain to spray its water. The heigt of the top in total is 90 mm. The gyroscope has a Ø of 70 mm.
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Thanks a lot Lourens!
It does have a side hole to the exterior, after all! It is an interesting complication as it would go against the creation of any vacuum.
It is a pity that the foot blocks the view of the water inlet (if my understanding is correct and the water enters at the lower bearing and not at the foot itself).
Jorge Are you trying to copy this top because you can not get one that works?
Not at this time. Maybe one day ::)
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Further proof -- as if it were needed -- that I have way too much time on my hands...
The third photo shows the very small pinhole on top of the flat red upper part of the reservoir. In my opinion to let in air that is mixed with the water. Height from this part of the top to the fountain spray is 55 mm.
Many thanks for the original directions, photos, and dimensions, Lourens. Per the directions, the "pin hole" is a lubrication port leading to the bearing supporting the rotor.
Oil port: I'm betting that this oil port has no significant effect on the air and water flows through the top at any stage. In the cut-away drawing, the "rotor bearing" surrounds the centerline above and between labels "C" and "R". When lubricated, the metal bearing surfaces would be separated by a thin film of pressurized oil. Given the weight of the rotor, this film would be unlikely to pass either air or water. Ditto for any water film or metal-on-metal contact in the absence of oil.
So, if there are no other holes above the vertical water intake at the bottom of the rotor (above label "B"), that intake must double as the only air intake of significance. Let's just call it the "intake" for short.
Spin-up after immersion? The directions clearly instruct the user to spin the top before immersing the intake, as Cyril did in his video. Whether this order is a necessity or just a matter of convenience is unclear. If a necessity, then the air fountain stage would be an essential step toward the water fountain stage, with a brief air-powered priming stage in between.
The test would be simple enough: Submerge the intake first and then spin up the top.
The drawing cross section shows a tube wall going vertical some distance before reaching the reservoir. The French description says that vacuum is created inside that suctions the water.
Agree, close inspection of the cut-away shows that this lowermost vertical rotor section surrounds an annular intake already filled with water. The water forms a continuous peripheral layer from there to the fountain inlet at label "C". To my mind, this scenario depicts only during the fully primed water fountain stage.
The inner wall of the intake is a cylindrical "cup" holding the (stiff ball-and-socket?) joint that allows the top to pivot on the foot. The cup is rigidly attached to an internal "spindle" ending above in the rotor bearing. The radial fountain inlet arm "C" is clearly part of the spindle, which is also rigidly attached to (i) the vertical fountain outlet tube ending above near label "D", and (ii) the handle via (i). As ta0 suggested, the rotor spins relative to the spindle and all its extensions. How the manufacturer got that L-shaped spindle part inside the ostensibly one-piece rotor is beyond me.
Self-priming? The old book explanation ta0 posted clearly implicates air in the priming process, but the author could have been mistaken. If the external water bath were deep enough to submerge the entire vertical intake and a portion of the sloping rotor reservoir as well, the fountain could conceivably be self-priming in the manner Dick suggested, with no need for a priming air flow.
However, the water in Cyril's video doesn't look deep enough for that to me. And judging from Lourens' measurements and the cut-away, neither is the design water bath depth of 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) called for in the original directions. If so, the role of the priming stage would be to propel water through the vertical intake and into the sloping rotor reservoir, where centrifugal force can take over. The most likely propellant in this case would be the air flow already established during the air fountain stage.
External Archimedes screw? The odd spiral ridge on the outer surface of the vertical intake could be strictly ornamental, but it could also assist in priming by acting as an Archimedes screw. The external water lifted by the screw would increase local water pressure at the submerged intake, thus reducing the net head to be overcome during priming.
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I am out! You guys figure it out. :)
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I am out, also.
I am Hout, also.
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I am out! You guys figure it out. :)
I am out, also.
I am Hout, also.
(https://i.imgflip.com/19dx7c.jpg)
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final words by Cyril on the phone last night:
"
j'ai relu les explications du journal La Nature de 1889 et je crois que c'est Dick Stohr qui a raison. Il n'y a pas de vis sans fin comme je le croyais."
"It's Dick who is right"
" there is no Archimedes screw as i thought"
(it's just a decoration...)
i've just got the full length video of the fountain top in action;
but it doesn't bring new elements
jim
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I have checked out my top very very closely and I think:
Ta0 is right with his opinion about the place where the water enters, so not at the foot but 10 mm higher.
Jeremy is right about the lubrication port
and finally
Dick is right about the abcence of the Archimedes Screw and how the spinning top works.
I enjoyed this conversation and hope that everyone enjoys this curious top for many reasons, just as I do! As a design made by Britain in late 1880's. Thanks very much to all the members of the Forum for taking part on this discussion!
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We all agreed on the way it works once water flows into the reservoir. The doubt was how it got there: does the conical part have to be submerged or is it vacuum sucked from the inlet?
The water level only needs to reach the inlet at A on the figure, not B, doesn't it?
(http://www.ta0.com/museum/images/Lourens/The-fountain-top_lower.jpg)
I look forward to inspecting it myself on a future visit to these fine collections :)
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Yes Ta0, in my opinion the water level needs to reach A. The screw formed part is, i think, just for decoration.
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Do you still get a fountain if you immerse the intake to a level between ta0's labels "A" and "B" and =then= spin up the top, contrary to the directions?
If not, I think that would be strong evidence that air flow does the priming, after which Dick's process takes over. Do you agree, ta0?
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Do you still get a fountain if you immerse the intake to a level between ta0's labels "A" and "B" and =then= spin up the top, contrary to the directions?
If not, I think that would be strong evidence that air flow does the priming, after which Dick's process takes over. Do you agree, ta0?
I am guessing that it will still work because some partial vacuum will be created inside the reservoir. There could even be some capillary action in the annular space between A and B.
I would be interested in knowing if the top works as well clockwise than counterclockwise. There is no mention in the instructions, so I guess so. That would tell me that the hole at the end of the static tube C is pointing out and not sideways into the flow.
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The fountain top only turns counter clockwise. At the upper side of the top is an arrow which points that way.
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The fountain top only turns counter clockwise. At the upper side of the top is an arrow which points that way.
That is a great piece of information. I could not distinguish the arrow on the photos.
With the hole at the end of the static tube facing against the rotating water it is easier to visualize how the top works.
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I was thinking that if the part from "A" to "B" was screw shaped also inside, it would help sucking water.
Who invented this top was an ingenious person.
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In the recent conversation I had with Judith Schulz, she specifically asked me about the fountain top. She wondered if I had one or if Don had one. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone with one except for Lourens.
If any board people know of one of these around, she is interested.
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Fascinating top!!! :o :o :o
God bless all you people for sharing and this forum!!
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Fascinating top!!! :o :o :o
God bless all you people for sharing and this forum!!
Indeed!
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In the recent conversation I had with Judith Schulz, she specifically asked me about the fountain top. She wondered if I had one or if Don had one. I don't believe I have ever seen anyone with one except for Lourens.
If any board people know of one of these around, she is interested.
I gather that she is still augmenting her collection. Then I guess she will be bidding on Lassanke's collection . . . and Don's.
But she is not the only one who is after a fountain top ::) ;)
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Is this just a coincidende??
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SPINNING.TOP.Ezra/permalink/2979376295409463/
(I think is a fountain top, but the translation is really bad and I cannot understand a thing!)
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Is this just a coincidende??
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SPINNING.TOP.Ezra/permalink/2979376295409463/
(I think is a fountain top, but the translation is really bad and I cannot understand a thing!)
The similarity in shape is coincidence. It's just a fancy dreidel.
(https://i.ibb.co/fC3rQnf/image.png) (https://ibb.co/fC3rQnf)
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