iTopSpin
Current Posts => Collecting, Modding, Turning and Spin Science => Topic started by: jim in paris on April 04, 2011, 11:27:15 AM
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hi all
hello my dear Lourens !
welcome to the topspinning forum
......Me received the book yesterday through my friend Ludovic Petit, in france
i want to thank you and congratulate you for this masterpiece
i talked to cyril mermilliod the collector last night we commented the pages
sometimes he would say I have this also or...."this is not a toupie " it can' t be launched :D...he said he visited you 10 years back...1 hour on the phone he was really excited !!
question
what happened on page 28 ?
the drawings on page 70 top right corner :
do you have this book ?what do you think of these drawings ?
page 71 the drawings again:
do you have the book or did you get permission from Leipzig ?
page 138 would you allow me to copy this page for a personal use ??
thanx in advance for your input and if you have time i'll have other questions ;) ;)
jim in paris
yoyo/spintop player
amateur woodturner and performing artist
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Hello Jim,
First of all: thank you very much for your kind words!
I will try to answer your questions.
Page 28: What do you mean with 'what's happened?'
Page 70: yes, I do have the original books. The drawings top right corner have been used in the books by Walter Kaudern and later by Kruyt. The other drawings on the same page have been made by Kruyt (De Tol in den Indischen Archipel) in 1935. It is a part from a very large research he did in the Archipelago of Indonesia. And it is the answer on the book from Kaudern. kruyt was not satisfied the book from Kaudern (Games and dances in Celebes). I think the drawings are very good and I have much more of the same research. The names, written on page 69, are all islands that he used during his research.
Page 71: I have some original pages from this Lexicon in my collection.
Page 138: Jim, can we talk about this again after i have sold most of the books? i hope you understand this from my point of view.
Please, explain the question about page 28 and I will try to answer this too. Other questions and input are welcome and I hope we will keep in touch. Warm Regards, Lourens.
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Just a few minutes after receiving the package of Trompos Space from Spain I received the two books (courtesy of the mailman): WOW! Jim is right, it is a masterpiece!!!! I have only browsed the first few pages as I now need to work (how???) and I don't want to rush it. I want to slowly enjoy every page.
Thanks Lourens!
PS: I skipped to page 28 and I don't know what Jim is referring to. I also peeked at page 138 and I had to laugh! ;D
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Welcome Lourens!
Looking forward to looking through your new book. Thanks!
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What is the name of the book, and where can you buy it?
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Hello Matias,
I can sent you some information and a digital flyer about the book if you sent me your e-mail address. Kind regards, Lourens.
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Lourens, could you send me the book ordering information too? - Eric
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The original post is here (http://www.ta0.com/forum/index.php?topic=1405.0). The ordering form is here (http://ta0.com/museum/images/Bas-Book3.jpg), although most people would just want to order by email (listed on the form.) Don posted the shipping costs to the US for multiple copies on that thread.
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Congratulations Lourens on a great work. I haven't seen it yet but it is exciting to hear the great reviews from people I respect. I look forward to some day seeing your book and enjoying all your hard work.
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hello again
it's great to have you here on the forum !
my Q about page 28 is just a nonsense :D joke//
it's the only page where the captions are handwritten, so i was wondering what had happened that day ,
keyboard on strike ? possibly !
p 187/188 : !! it got me in a state of shock ...it's so magnifique..the character is a wonder and the jumping top too
on the important matters : the way you push Richard Andree ' s thesis a little further by pointing the similitude between some american indian tops and tops from european origin makes the reading really thrilling
your book goes far beyond a "collector's book"
on a side not the drawing p 70 is credited to Kaudern in Gould's book(p28)
Kruyt is not mentioned
bizarre ! 8)
jim
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And I have a more personal question. You say you started your collection with a 19th century whip top you found at an archaeological site (1st photo in the introduction.) Did you just stumble upon the whip top laying on the ground or was it unearthed on a professional dig? What was your second top and when you decided to start collecting them in a serious manner?
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Hello Jim,
Thank you again for your enthusiasm and questions. I see you reed very thorough and some of your questions are about things that make a difference!
Concerning p.28: i understand your joke but I hope that you feel glad that I didn't do the whole book like this! After all, it is the way I have worked during the years that I studied the spinning tops and was preparing this book: I work like using a diary and make drawings, sketches in small notebooks. This all has to do with an artistic background!
The top on page 187 / 188 is indeed very rare! I have never seen or heard about a second one. I bought it about 10 years ago.
About Gould: his probleme was that he was not able to read the Dutch and German language. But he was clever enough to ask people in museums to translate some things for him. I have never met him in person but in 1977 / 1978 I had a correspondence with him. He was almost 79 years at that time, i think. We had similar ideas. His interest had the background of a scientist (he was an engineer) and mine was more artistic and historical. He was a collector of spinning tops and he put his tops in the collection of the University Museum of Pennsylvania together with the collection from Stewart Cullin. After his professional life as an enigeer he was very interested in spinning tops. So I still have some pages and letters from him, written on the original paper of this University. We planned to do research about spinning tops from the Baltic area but unfortunately he passed away before we could make a start.
So, 'this is all folks for this moment'! Kind regards, Lourens.
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Dear Ta0,
First of all, thank you for your kind mail and personal words!
Let me tell you some more about how it al started.
on the age of 21 (a very long tome ago!) my youngest brother in law and me walked along a small stream. Archeological research was done there and finished by a special organisation. My brother in law found the spinning top and i found a silver coin. We both were more interested in the finding if the other one so we did a swap! When I came I showed my father how wonderful the top looke: like a fossil! my father told that his tops were still with his family and I picked them up (a small gyroscope with the Eiffeltower (1910) and a wooden peg top from the same time). And 3 tops make a small collection and soon became five and after this ... i stopped counting and enjoyed collecting all the differences, as well as shapes, countries, materials and so on. That is 46 years ago.
Warm regards, Lourens.
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Thank you for sharing your story, Lourens.
I wish one day I could say I picked up a top myself from an archaeological site! Nowadays, the vast majority of my tops come from ebay or they are new. A few I receive as gifts, for example from people that travel and find one. Very, very seldom do I discover one myself at an antique shop, flea market, etc.
Forty six years of studying and collecting tops is a long time indeed!
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dear lourens,
thanx again for your comments
i wish i could talk to you about Mr Malafosse i'm sure you've visited him or met him
Cyril has already told me a bit about him ....
p 207/ + P 247
these caricatures with a political figure pictured with a spintop or a yoyo has many variations...postcards, ink work etc...it' s interesting to see that the object corresponds perfectly to its significance :
a top spinning = hazard , unreliable ,
yoyo= dilettante distraction for people who are not "serious"
.................////////////// cut in
and page 208 suddenly appears Mata Hari !
wonderful illustration , she was a TOP lady ( for sure , vulture :o )
hope the distribution is going well
be ready for a re-run :-*
jim
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Hello Jim,
I think we have a lot of similar interests! Too much to talk about on a forum! Maybe we can meet each other in future and share some thoughts and the people we have met in the past. The book sells very well and I am very proud that well known museums like the V and A in England and the Toy Museum in Catalunya bought it also! So, maybe indeed a redun in the future??
Lourens.
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I advanced a few more pages (I guess I am a slow reader ;) )
I didn't know a top had been found on Tutankhamen's grave! A very nice whip top indeed, made of wood with an inlaid of ivory, ebony and faience. The top is 4.5 cm tall and I would guess the most valuable top in the world. I bet nobody has whipped it in 3,300+ years! I bet they wouldn't let me do it :P
(http://www.ta0.com/museum/images/miscellaneous/Tutankamun-top.jpg)
I did a search on Google. From the Global Egyptian Museum (http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org) that has the same picture: "The spinning top was one of the most beloved toys of Egyptian children in ancient and even modern times."
Here (http://www.kingtutshop.com/freeinfo/Ancient-Egyptian-Games.htm), under Ancient Egyptian Games, it says: "Toys were almost always made of wood and/or clay. Tops, though, were made of powdered quartz that was shaped in a mold . . . and then glazed. These were inexpensive and therefore could be found in most poor homes. They spun by pulling a string or twisting fingers. " The last statement may be somewhat incorrect as Lourens states they were all whip tops and has pictures of several.
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That is information that everyone can relate to. I bet I will always get people's attention when I say "There was even a top found in King Tut's grave!"
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Dear Ta0 and Mike,
In addition to your remarks about the top from Tut: as you can see on page 16 of my book also wooden tops were made for the children in the villages like Kahun in that time. Of this kind of tops more were found in one place. The search will go one.
The next few days I am not able to keep an eye on this forum because I have some books to sell on a show! Lourens
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ok lourens !
you're right !
this discussinon should take place in a café
where we could talk and let the good times roll
plus
not many people here on the forum have got the book yet
so we'll come back to this topic later
best of lucks for the promotion ;)
jim
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I am about to start the section of scientific tops.
Of the previous pages I cannot help to comment about the description of Dutch author Theo Thijssen of the game of "water welling" of his youth, late 1800's. The boys challenged each other to throw a top to the surface of a canal, like trying to spin it on the water, and to pull back the top at the last instant (a la boomerang) with the tip wet. You can imagine that tops were often lost forever. Still, they preferred that fate than to have the top split in two by another top!
On page 44, the elegant early 19th century English tops 7 (whip) and 8 (peg) are adorned with ebony and mother pearl discs on the crown. I have a couple of peg tops I bought together that have what appears to be a similar decoration. I assumed they were 20th century tops, but now I wonder.
That is a beautiful (and large) collection of European humming tops you have! But none is similar to the central drawing on the 1869 poster on page 53. Do you have such a top with many holes at different heights? I wonder if the different holes perhaps open to different chambers and sound different tones? By the way, have you found one that makes a particularly beautiful or striking sound?
I imagine that the clown finger top on page 61 has two sections that spin separately so the tongue can point to different numbers. What materials is it made of?
On the description of the Kelantan gasing tops on page 68, you say the border is made out of lead. Although it does look as lead, I believe it is tin, or an alloy mostly of tin. I have seen them described as such and Malaysia is a big exporter of tin. I tried to check this on a 20th century gasing and the weight was consistent with tin (but I cannot be sure as I weighed the top intact).
This book is a treat to look at and also to read. Thanks!!!
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I cannot sleep. The pole vaulters I coach had a great meet tonight. I'm still too excited and cranked to rest. So I got on the good old itopspin.com site and started laughing when I read about "water welling". Trying to spin the top so it barely hits the water before pulling it back made me chuckle out loud. Sounds like a fun activity to do at pool side in Orlando at Worlds!!!
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Dear Ta0,
Thank you for appreciating of the book and the story of Theo Thijssen!
Concerning your remark about the tops on page 44 related to your owm collection: take a look at page 141 (A boys present). You see the same tops but the advertisement shows they were part of a set. Sold in 3 qualities. In the same time you also could buy them in a larger quantity like 5 or 6 and for sure they are dated between 1840-1890.
Concerning page 53:No, I do not have this top with the many holes and I have never seen it either! On page 149 you see a tin version with the same possibilities. This tops plays multiple octaves and 'God save the King'. At this top the different holes and chambers open and close, this varies with the speed of the top. Touching it with the hand carefully, during spinning, makes this happen. I have spinning tops like this but not this special one with so many possibilities!
Concerning page 61: the top is made of wood and you are right about the movement. It is made in Germany, by C. Hacker in the early 1900s.
Concerning page 68: you are right about the alloy. The oldest one I have, has totally been made of wood, from the 19th century, diameter is 12,5 inches. See page 65.
I am looking forward to discuss more in future! Lourens.
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Thank you Lourens for taking the time to answer all my questions.
A 12.5 diameter gasing is huge!
Tonight I'll start the scientific tops section which I predict will be one of my favorites as my collection started with modern "science toy tops" (Levitron, Top Secret and the Hart's motorized top).
Mike: that would be fun, but we should add the rule that you have to bee fully dressed when playing so retrieving the top will have its "penalty" :D
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Thanks for the terrific book Lourens!
I discovered it had arrived when I got home late last night. I should have gone to bed, but I could not put it down!
The photos are beautiful.
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Dear Eratic Wobbler,
I hope the book did not cause any nightmares but gave you sweet dreams after all!
Lourens.
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Ok, I got to the start of the Japanese section. So I have these remarks and questions about the scientific toys section.
You mention both James Clerk Maxwell and Crabtree's book. On pages 8 and 51 of Crabtree there are drawings of the remarkable "Gyroscopic Top". I read this was invented by "a professor Maxwell" but it did not specifically say it was THAT Maxwell. Do you know if that was the case?
At the time John Gorham invented the Kaleidoscopic Colour top in England, another J. Gorham on the other side of the Atlantic was starting Gorham Silver manufacturing that would much later make the poker top of sterling silver on page 62 (without caption.) I have the version with the "decision maker" design instead.
In the Blondin top, page 80, the lower top is just a pedestal, it does not spin, is that correct?
Did you ever try the Phonograph Top? Did it play a tune? (I asked the same question to Cyril M. but I believe he answered that he did not dare to test it).
Can you explain the Fireworks top? Do you spin it in the dark and shine a light on those strange attachments to the stem?
Yes, the picture of the collection of tops from the 1896 issue of La Nature is amazing and I am not surprised you write that you "felt struck by lightning" the first time you saw it. That article is available on the internet, in particular the drawing is here (http://cnum.cnam.fr/CGI/fpage.cgi?4KY28.46/29/100/536/0/0). The following year Scientific American published the same article in English, which I have. I plan to scan it an posted on the website one day. I imagine collecting all those tops must have been a great incentive. I have many questions about the tops in the Nature poster, but you say they will be discussed individually later.
Tops made out of glass are unusual for obvious reasons. I wonder how many of the "ink well" tops (pages 89-90) survived all the tricks described in the brochure! Do you dare test it?
You describe the "American Football" top, page 91, as American from 1945-1955. It always looked older to me, like taken out of the pages of Perry's book that you mention on the same page.
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Hello Ta0,
Considering Maxwell: I do not think that it was the same person because I know of some letters from Maxwell to an other scientist in which he referred to the Foucaults Gyroscope.
Considering the Gorham silver top: various versions are known. I think that Gorham, the scientist, is not related to the silver-maker. But both are worth collecting!
Considering the Blondin-top: see the description on the box! It calls 'the top on the top of the top'. A long time ago, after purchasing this wonderful top and the hand painted box, my wife and I spent a whole evening but after all, both tops were spinning! A wonderful item!!
The Phonograph Top: yes I did try it but because I only have 1 original cone I made a copy of a cone with a very hard paper point. But I am not the best musician of the world and the music I made was not worthwile an audience!
The fireworks Top: You can play with it in daylight. On top are metallic like wires ( in various directions and heights) and a piece of black paper as a background and a piece of red, very shining (like metallic / milk cups) paper. If you turn the top and look at it from above it looks like sparkling. As much fireworks as you can expect for the original English price of 1 shilling!
The reason why I was 'in a shock' of the La Nature picture (1896) was that in a serious scientific magazine like La Nature toy-tops were described from the point of view of a scientific research. Most if the toy tops in this picture were made by English, German and French toy factories from the second half of the 1800's. Some of them you'll find in my book in the parts about this countries. Even Gould described in his book for example that he had never seen figure 48 (satelite top or proliferous top).
As I like to 'play' with every top I have (for joy and research) i have also tried the ink well top but very carefully on the ground and for that reason not very succesful! I have never seen a second blue one but did see a red version some time ago. The paper I have never seen again.
At first, I also thought that the American Football-top was older, maybe made in the 1920's - 1930's but that was before I saw an advertisement in an American Toy catalogue from the period 1945 / 1950. The catalogue was not dated but the other toys in this catalogue are well known and dated. The colors of the top, depicted in my book are different from the one I saw in the catalogue so maybe it was made during a long time?
Enjoy your weekend! have fun Ta0, warm regards, Lourens.
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As I like to 'play' with every top I have (for joy and research) i have also tried the ink well top
Lourens, you sir are in good company!