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[razerface]

The grandson and i are having big fun throwing tops. Butterfingers sent him a bunch of tops to play with and now we both want to learn more then see how long we can make them spin. As usual,,grandson has no problems but i do. Old dog new trick thing i suppose.

Everything i throw is landing with the top of the top away from me and the point aimed back at me. I shorten strings, i lengthen strings, i hold it different but nothing works. The top lands on its side when i use a longer string, and points to the left. When i shorten the string, it lands on the tip, but points back toward me as it lands resulting in a drunk looking spin. Once in a while it lands pretty straight but not very often. Any hints?

[ta0]

That it lands on the side pointing to the left when the string is too long, is what I would expect.
I looks that the shorter string is the right length. I'm not sure why it lands pointing towards you.  Perhaps you are pulling back but the throw was too weak.
Could you post a video (your grandson can help) so we have a better idea of how you are throwing?

[razerface]

There are no top people around me.

If another person throws your top,,will the same string length work for them?

[ortwin]

Hi razerface!
Maybe you can tell us what the general throwing style it is you are using to get it to spin?
There are quite different ones. Once I tried here to get them clear for me here. But that did not lead to much. Maybe the videos linked in that thread are of some help to you.
I learned first the "side throw". But by now I think that the bowling/underhand/submarine throw is better for judging the influence of string length and I can get more methodically to a throw where the top ends up spinning vertical:
Lets say I get a new top. I put some string on it. Then I throw it with that bowling technique and the tip pointing straight up upon release. That is my "neutral position". If the top ends up spinning straight (on the ground or coming back as a boomerang) all is fine. If it is leaning left or right I can just correct that in the next throw by twisting my wrist accordingly before I release the top. With a different string length/thickness my angle I hold the top the moment before I release it will need to be different.

[razerface]

Lol,,,and i thought there would be a simple fix,,,,   I watched some of the videos ortwin referenced and will watch more when i get time later.

I do the sideways throw. I do bend my elbow some and i think i snap my wrist, sort of like throwing a baseball sidearm.

[razerface]

Well, I'm excited now. I found that i can throw better when i do the “tip up bowling ball” throw on a jupiter roller bearing. I do not get the rough string rub/tangle throw so far. I’ll start relearning tonite after work to see if the strummel8 will work too.

Being the new guy, I thought there was only one way to throw.

[ortwin]

... I do not get the rough string rub/tangle throw so far. ...

Which one is that? Example video anywhere?

[razerface]

... I do not get the rough string rub/tangle throw so far. ...

Which one is that? Example video anywhere?

I was having throws that felt really gritty, while the top was going out like the string was rubbing real hard against itself. My good throws feel very smooth, and with no vibration from the string.

[ortwin]

Ah, I think I may know that feeling in the string you are describing.
Not absolutely sure what it is. Could be the wrapping is not tight enough in those cases??


About the different throwing techniques. I have one top (Strummol8 STB 1.5 fixed tip) that I can boomerang with exactly the same string, same way of winding it three different ways:
Sideways - the technique I learnt first
Bowlingstyle - this way I feel I have the most control
Downwards - this feels the most powerful and gives the fastest spins


But it may just be coincidental that I use this string thickness and length with that top.  I do not think I have observed that all three techniques work for me with the same string for any other top of mine.


Talking tip type: From the other topic we write at the moment I assume that you have mainly bearing tip tops? And you mainly throw to the ground?
If both should be the case, I must tell you that in my opinion spinning a bearing tip top on the ground has almost only disadvantages over spinning a fixed tip top on the ground.
If you spin a fixed tip top on the floor it can right itself up, even if it starts with a large leaning angle. A bearing tip top can't do that.
If you are spinning a bearing tip top on the floor with the intention to do a "sky rocket" and practice your balancing on the hand as an exercise prior to learning the boomerang, than it is another story.   

[razerface]

Talking tip type: From the other topic we write at the moment I assume that you have mainly bearing tip tops? And you mainly throw to the ground?
If both should be the case, I must tell you that in my opinion spinning a bearing tip top on the ground has almost only disadvantages over spinning a fixed tip top on the ground.
If you spin a fixed tip top on the floor it can right itself up, even if it starts with a large leaning angle. A bearing tip top can't do that.
If you are spinning a bearing tip top on the floor with the intention to do a "sky rocket" and practice your balancing on the hand as an exercise prior to learning the boomerang, than it is another story.

This is exactly what grandson and i are trying to learn. Do you think we should change to a fixed tip to learn this? I assumed the bearing would be the one to try to spin in my hand and avoid the friction of a fixed tip

[the Earl of Whirl]

Ortwin, you are so nice to write out all that good information.  Very nice.  Razerface (I love that name) I am happy to see you hanging in there and getting this.  I would use both bearing and fixed but the fixed generally does a little better on spinning after it is on the ground.  Actually, the throwing motion is very simple and sometimes we tend to make it harder than it is.  Slightly shorter string is easier when starting and keeping a straight arms when throwing is a way to be consistent.  We always say keep the point up but sometimes having the point slightly forward helps.  Good luck and keep spinning!!!

[ortwin]

...
This is exactly what grandson and i are trying to learn. Do you think we should change to a fixed tip to learn this?

So you need a good upright throw plus a decent skyrocket to even start to try to balance the top on your palm. You should definitely get some fixed tip top also - maybe a yoyofactory short circuit or some Mexican style top. It is quite rewarding to see the top upright itself consistently!
But it is not necessary to keep going forward towards the boomerang: try throwing the bearing tops to a frisbee or some larger plate that you can pick up. If it leaning and precessing pick up the plate/frisbee with the top and move it around so that the top ends spinning as upright as possible. Now you can either put it back down and go for the sky rocket, or you pop it directly to the palm of your grandson or he to yours.
The movement with the frisbee/plate will also teach you how you have to move your hand to keep the top upright. As a general rule always move the plate/palm/frisbee in the direction the tip of the top is pointing to.


Have fun!

[razerface]

The grandson has a bunch of fixed tipped tops. A generous member here named Butterfingers sent him a box full to get him started! I’m sure i can borrow one from him to try. I will try the frisbee trick with the bearing top,,although i have my doubts about being that accurate. i will learn.

[the Earl of Whirl]

Wait!  You know butterfingers?  I was looking for him like crazy this weekend.  He is part of the Rochester group but it seems that they have not seen him as much lately.  Do you live near upper New York?

[ortwin]

...I will try the frisbee trick with the bearing top,,although i have my doubts about being that accurate. i will learn.

Maybe it is easier to shove a piece of sheet metal under the top, wherever it might land. Or maybe pick it up with  a dustpan (That is not a tested procedure! Proceed at own risk!)
I just tested the pick up with a dustpan. It works good for me. I might use that technique now to teach myself to balance a top that spins counterclockwise on my palm. I am left handed, that leads t the top usually spinning in clockwise direction. But for a trick I plan to learn I need the top spinning counterclockwise and the balancing with that spin direction is not yet possible for me.