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[johnm]

Consistency and repeatability are so immensely important, but at the same time they take sooooo long to improve!

It could be a good time in your learning curve to introduce a Japanese Chonkake goma to your top collection.  This top provides a somewhat different style of play which can help stave off the boredom and frustration of repetition while plateaued on improvement but still enhancing general universal spintop skills.  These are heavier tops which helps with string management and string feed with the non-button hand as much regeneration with a chonkake can be delivered by its drag on the string while falling.  The fulcrum created by the string is close to the center of mass so precession is slow which allows more response time to improve consistency.  Rotating ones body to match the precession seems fairly natural and shouldn't add much complication to the effort.  The starting technique is somewhat of a "half-step" to the snap start so desired by western style top players.  Some players (Kirk in particular) credited the chonkake for achieving regeneration success.

Perhaps some of the yo-yo players may have some insight as to whether certain exercises with an off-string yo-yo could help with consistency.  In particular, I think that not having precession eliminates some of the timing issues which could allow one to focus on a uniform pop from the same consistent height at the bottom of the string to the same consistent height for the catch.

[ortwin]

.....It could be a good time in your learning curve to introduce a Japanese Chonkake goma to your top collection. ....

Yes, the Chonkake goma !
A few month ago I was almost close to ordering one because I had seen some videos that I liked: the elegant movement, the large size and therefore visibility of the top and the general shape of that top. For me that represents a lot more the archetypal shape of a top than the conical shapes.
In February at the Marines festival it was Emmanuel or Mermouy who had a Chonkake goma on display there and that gave me the chance to try one. I was also shown how you start it and a few more introductory tips where given. After two or three tries I had it going a bit and started  rotating to match the precession as it needs to be done for this style of top.
I surely did not turn around very often until I lost it, but when I stopped - man I felt dizzy!!!
I decided instantly that Chonkake gome is not for me - even though I like what it looks like and even though my first few minutes with one where not a complete failure.  This turning around seems to really get to me. Maybe I could get used to it with more practice, but no, I do not feel like I want to do much more Chonkake goma.


I am not really badly bored by practicing roller coasters yet! I use different tops that have a different feel and there is still some progress.
I hope to soon reach 20 repetitions at least once with one of my tops. Then I will stop counting for a while even though I will continue practicing  roller coasters, but then mix in again more training of other tricks/skills and pick up my bearing tops again as well.

[jim in paris]

howdie all !

very interesting thread
thanx to johnM

a new syntagme has come to life

" the pop of the top""

we knew the "top of the pops" in rock culture

rock on

jim

[ta0]

but when I stopped - man I felt dizzy!!!
I decided instantly that Chonkake gome is not for me

It's not the way it's traditionally played, but you can play a chonkakegoma without rotating your body. You can certainly do drumbeat and sewing machine. It's a great top to learn those two tricks. You cannot do proper roller coasters because there is no clearance for the width of the chonkake.

a new syntagme has come to life

" the pop of the top""

There is the one Duncan used in the 60s for top battling:
"Bop the Top"

[ortwin]

... You can certainly do drumbeat and sewing machine. It's a great top to learn those two tricks. ...

Alright, you got me interested again in the chonkake goma! It seems hard to come by in European shops. Getting it from spingear in Japan is expensive due to customs and shipping. Maybe at Marines next year there will be one available... but it is almost another year!

[johnm]

In the USA there are a lot of charity shops, thrift stores, garage sales, etc. where used kitchen supplies can be purchase for low $$.  I suspect a steel sauce pan lid about 5 inches (maybe 120 to 150 mm) diameter would be a very nice weight for the body of a home made chonkake.  Although Taka plays the lid as is (and so does Jim Neff), frequently the handle is secured with a single screw so it could be replaced by something with a more appropriate shape.  A drawer pull or perhaps a decorative punk spike might offer a good tip geometry to replace the lid handle.  I'm sure your "lathe man" could also produce a fine tip to attach to a suitable lid.  Some disc golf discs might also offer a reasonable body shape and weight distribution for a simple chonkake body, although a centered mounting hole is not provided.

[ortwin]

Thank you John for the good tips! I will look in one or two corners where old stuff accumulates in our basement, it is very likely that I can find something there. Although I am afraid that if it is not the real thing, I will take that as an excuse why it is not working for me.
One thing that is not working is this toddler-top I got in Marines this year. Alberto had them there:

[ortwin]

I reached my goal of 20 "roller coaster" repetitions today as I just reported in my "progress log" .
With the Strummol8 STB I managed 22 repetitions.


Since this topic is called "Regeneration question" here is my next question:
Typically how many repetitions are needed to get a top to a good speed with roller coasters?

[ta0]

Congratulations Ortwin! That's a great achievement!

I would say that after 5 roller coasters you should be at your max spin. How high a spin you can achieve depends on your ability. But I don't think anybody can reach the speed of a boomerang with a small top.
The most regenerating tricks are Joker Choker and high (drumbeat style) tosses.

[ortwin]

In an earlier post in this topic , I promised to try to make a video of a few repetitions of my roller coasters. Here it comes:

[Texture]

I think I already see why you aren’t regenerating as much as you could.

After every catch, you tend to keep your hands pretty stationary. What you should actually be doing is feeding the string into the top after every catch by pumping the string twice, then after the second pump you would pull the string to pop the top up. The timing of this can be a bit tough to get down but without it you won’t be able to regenerate very much at all. I think this is a common beginner mistake when learning roller coasters, but I believe once you get it down you should be able to regenerate very well.

[ortwin]

Thank you Texture for your valuable feedback!


I watched some of the instruction videos on the roller coaster again with the focus on what you said. I think I kind  of get it: what I am basically missing, is the downward movement of the throwhand before the pop up. That gives more string contact during the pop up I guess, makes sense!
I also tried to do it now, I already get the impression it would really mean a real improvement to the regeneration. But actually I can't really tell yet, I have to readjust the timing and install this new rhythm in my muscle memory to be able to get a few good repetition with this. Thanks again!

[Texture]

No problem! Keep up the good work 

[Kirk]

Ortwin,
Also notice that your first RC swings wide to your right.  This merry-go-round like motion give you more string contact and a chance to pump like Texture says.  That motion also makes it easier to to get the top more vertical.
Congratulation on 20!
Kirk
PS I was going for 100 RCs the other day and dropped at 92.  The disappointment was offset by the fact that 92 is more that twice my previous maximum.

[ortwin]

Congratulations on 92!
By "swings wide to your right"   I am assuming you really mean it from the players perspective and also taking into account that I am left handed, right?