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REGISTRATION OPEN FOR 2020 WORLD SPINTOP ONLINE CONTEST

Poll

What should be the deadline for the World Spintop Online Contest?

Sunday, August 30th
- 2 (15.4%)
Sunday, September 13th
- 0 (0%)
Sunday, Septmeber 27th
- 2 (15.4%)
Sunday, October 11th
- 0 (0%)
Sunday, October 25th
- 9 (69.2%)

Total Members Voted: 13


Author Topic: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?  (Read 2181 times)

ta0

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World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« on: June 29, 2020, 02:23:00 PM »

As you all know the yoyo/spintop world contest in Budapest has been postponed until 2021.
The idea came up at ITSA to have a virtual contest this year. The four directors and (so far) the ambassadors of France, US, Japan, Mexico and Czech Republic have supported the idea.
The format and all the details, including dates, still have to be sorted out. But there is agreement that having live freestyles, even if not at the same time due to different time zones, is the way to go. Fortunately, most people are now accustomed to communicating with online video (zoom, skype, whatsapp, etc.) so technology won't be a problem. By the way, IJA is doing this for their annual meeting.

The world is going through a very bad situation but we can take this opportunity to have a more inclusive contest where travel and resources will not limit who can compete. In fact, potentially we could have more competitors than ever.
Although the principal objective is to have freestyles for the 2020 world title, other activities and contests are possible. We should be able to have a Sports division, for example.

I start this thread so everybody can contribute with their thoughts and ideas.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 03:31:17 PM by ta0 »
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CUPER

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2020, 06:37:37 PM »

Felicidades buena idea hacer algo sobre todo donde  festivales,encuentros día a día mundo trompos vamos creciendo creo que siempre adaptar a las situaciones que vivimos todos es exlente se concrete el evento ..
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Jon Gates

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2020, 08:04:11 PM »

I would love to attend this event.
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Texture

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2020, 08:58:44 PM »

This is a great idea! Unfortunately, I don't consider myself good enough to compete...  :-\
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Split that top!

ta0

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2020, 10:20:23 PM »

IJA will have its free online festival in July, so we can learn from it.

I think the freestyles have to be recorded live. But somebody suggested pre-recorded freestyles. I think that would be the first thing to decide. I'm putting a poll up so people can give their opinion (but the final decision belongs to ITSA's International Board to which I do not belong).

If the freestyles are live, here is one possibility:

1- During a weekend different time slots are agreed upon between the judges and the registered competitors, according to the part of the world they are at, so it's convenient for everybody.
2- At least one judge will view the freestyle live and interact with the players. He will keep one recording of the freestyle, which will be the official recording.
3- The players will have the option to upload a high definition recording to youtube (within a few hours) that will be approved as official if it matches the live recording.
4- The judges will score the freestyles from the recordings. Not having all judges necessarily view all performances live will facilitate finding time slots.
5- When the technology used allows to have a large number of live viewers, the public will be able to view the performance live.

One of the directors suggested having different divisions: Traditional, fixed and bearing. I think at least a separate traditional division would be good. Another possible separate division could be bigger tops (just throwing it out there for feedback).

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ta0

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2020, 02:40:26 PM »

One problem I see for the pre-recorded video is that, paradoxically, the pressure on the player is much greater. A long, long time ago, I used to write proposals for competitive grants and, no matter how early I started and how much work I put in, I would end up working to the last conceivable minute before the deadline, as they could always be improved. The same with a freestyle video. Even if you hit your ideal clean routine, there will always be something you can change to make it more difficult to get the extra point that will give you the world title.
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Neff

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2020, 02:52:22 PM »

I think my only reservation with live video is the inevitable user error and potential for technical error.  I assume we could mostly agree on a single host such as Zoom or Google Meet, but the internet itself is not the most dependable beast. If there is lag, that could affect scores. But really I see potential for excessive down time when players are not ready when it is their turn, and it not being fair to immediately skip to the next person when they thought they had 3 more minutes, and if they are skipped can they come back? For spectators they could come and go but the judges will have to be glued to the feed until all competitors are done. Maybe there will not be that many competitors and I'm sure we could work through it, but I think pre-recorded has potential for being a "cleaner" online event. Judges could judge separately and turn their scores in by a pre-determined deadline.

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jim in paris

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2020, 02:31:51 AM »

hi all

I first thought that live videos would be the solution,but now I have changed my opinion ,
mainly for the same reasons as Chris :
 imagine getting ready for the live feed and having a technical problem or a moment of lag,
which often happens when many people are connected
in addition , I share the concluding statement :
pre-recorded has potential for being a "cleaner" online event.

cheers

jim

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ta0

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2020, 12:20:03 PM »

I was exchanging messages with Guillem of Spain. He thinks it's a great idea and wants to compete. He prefers September to August, to have more time to practice.
I'm thinking that it should be after Miamisburg in case we have a US nats, so September sounds good to me.

I see that several have voted for pre-recorded routines. Guillem agrees with me that if we have pre-recorded routines it's more pressure on the players as some will be filming countless routines to get it right. It will also be a very different type of competition. Yes, the freestyles will be much cleaner if pre-recorded. I may even compete in that case so I can have a clean routine online to show. But the ranking will probably be somewhat different to a live contest and will feel very different to the players.

Technology wise, we only need some independent remote witness(es) of the live performance, preferably a judge but could be somebody else trustworthy who is assigned. He/she will certify that the video uploaded to youtube is that of the live performance. The judges will judge the freestyles at the end of the weekend. I don't foresee any showstopper technical problem. The routines from different people don't have to happen one after the other. They can be spread over a weekend. If we assign 2 witnesses (judges or not) for each freestyle, we should be able to handle any technical delays.
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ta0

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Judging the World Virtual Spintop Contest
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2020, 01:32:46 PM »

One possibility is that this is self-judged by the competitors themselves: each players ranks the routines (at least the first 3) except his/her own, (just placement, not points) and the results are added. This could work for either routines recorded "live" or pre-recorded.
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JODA9395

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2020, 02:37:08 PM »

The issue with doing things live through live streams is that you will always have a delay and that can interrupt the flow of things. I have no knowledge on how to rectify that, but I'd imagine that it would prove to be a challenge for those who would have to overcome that.
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ta0

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2020, 06:07:15 PM »

The issue with doing things live through live streams is that you will always have a delay and that can interrupt the flow of things. I have no knowledge on how to rectify that, but I'd imagine that it would prove to be a challenge for those who would have to overcome that.
Some years ago, before personal live streams were common, we discussed the idea of somebody calling in and talking to the performer while he is recording (just before and at the end of the freestyle) to leave a proof that the recording was at that time. As the judging will be on the high resolution video uploaded afterwards, the only thing we need is a way to certify that it was filmed in one try. We can do that with a crappy connection or even with only audio.
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ta0

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2020, 11:55:17 AM »

Talked to Miguelanchelo and he is all excited about competing. With at least Guillem and Miguel Angel, we'll finally have Spain represented, and very well indeed!
We need to talk to Quentin. As there is no yo-yo contest he could well enter for France, together with Mermouy . . . France should also be well represented!
Mexico, Japan and Colombia will also have great entries . . .

IJA is letting all its members judge the recorded juggling freestyles in advance of their online event. It's a sophisticated setup in which you log in and are shown the performances in random order and you score them after viewing each one, in 5 categories (difficulty, creativity, execution, entertainment and presentation). A few minutes ago I scored the junior performances.
I'm inclined to think that for us the best would be to have the competitors do the scoring. It would be an interesting change from having the judges do it. I'm also inclined to think that we do not need full scoring but just ranking.

Watching the IJA junior performances I noted some things. Three out of five were recorded inside. This can limit the space available, specially the height (one juggler had to kneel down to do 5 clubs). One girl that did a fantastic job bouncing basketballs had a clean performance but look very tired, probably from previous tries. On the other hand, I realized that one problem of doing a live recording is that bad weather can stop somebody from performing outside when he/she does not have a suitable indoor space. But I guess, unexpected issues can always happen, even in regular events.

I would like more input, specially for those who would like to compete. If I have to write all the rules myself, no complaints afterwards . . .  ;) I think we should set the format in the next two weeks, to give people at least a month and a half to prepare.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 03:28:54 PM by ta0 »
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Neff

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2020, 02:07:24 PM »

Just had a thought, if we did pre-recorded, there would obviously be a time deadline for all judge scores (be it competitor judged or otherwise), right?  Well  after the deadline we could have an online event for the results! A google meet virtual award ceremony of sorts!  I think that would be fantastic. 

I like the round-robin judging (or competitor judged) idea, I have experienced it in a couple of ways. One way I find very interesting and simple is called "Shoe Judging", the fixed axle yo-yo community uses it at contests and I really like it, but I do not fully recall the structure of it at the moment. I will do some research and report back.
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ta0

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Re: World Virtual Spintop Contest 2020?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2020, 10:50:15 AM »

It occurred to me that we could have an intermediate option between live and pre-recorded freestyles, which is to limit the time allowed to record and upload the freestyle to a period between half a day and 2 days (to be determined).
We can ensure this is the case by providing the competitors at the start of the competition period a number that is selected randomly. The player will have to show a hand written sign at the start of the routine with that number. The number could be determined, for example, using the method we use for the raffles.

The different time zones present a little difficulty to make the competition period fair. We could have a method that provides different number codes that are released at a fixed local time (e.g. 8 AM Saturday morning) for each time zone. I need to think how to accomplish this.

Just had a thought, if we did pre-recorded, there would obviously be a time deadline for all judge scores (be it competitor judged or otherwise), right?  Well  after the deadline we could have an online event for the results! A google meet virtual award ceremony of sorts!  I think that would be fantastic. 
I like this idea!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 10:53:10 AM by ta0 »
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