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[Kirk]

I have never felt less motivated to compete.

I am sorry to hear that your feel the same way I do.  After last year's nationals not only were scores not revealed, even the places were not revealed.  Did I come in 4th or last?  Repeated asking yielded nothing.  I have hardly thrown a top since. I'm getting riled up emotionally so I'll shut up now.

[jim in paris]

hello Kirk
i'm very sorry to hear this story
it seems that even at nationals,an event which is totally self-organized, there is still a gap
between judges and competitors
this must be changed in the future.
I have been treasurer and president of the french yoyo association for 6 years and at each yoyo contest
the score sheets are passed around to players
everything is visible and there has never been a bitter feeling like the one you (and Eli) describe

next year in Marines , we'll do the national spintop contest with a new format:
freestyle+battle+target-throw taiwan style


good day

jim

[the Earl of Whirl]

Ahhh, 2011.  That was the last year I tried to score points in a freestyle.

I may try to score points again someday.  But currently I am having too much fun living outside the scoring system.

It is not easy to fully understand the scoring for freestyles.  I spent years guessing and figured out a few things which gave me the fun idea to try to not drop a top in 3 minutes.  I have heard that I went too far although I took the top on a journey all around my body and bounced it on elbows and shoulders, regenerating it all the time (which I had always heard was a good thing).

I always understood that freestyles are "free".  I did the same series of tricks for two years.  Nothing was said about them the first year but there certainly seemed to be a lot of comments about them the second year.  By the way, 99.9 percent of that discussion was in English. 

I applaud this conversation about scoring.  We need to have it more often.  I applaud all who get on stage and subject themselves to being judged.  I am proud of their efforts and the work of judges.  I will do all I can to not be a judge.  I really want to be on stage again but we have had so many competitors doing great things for points that the top world does not need me up there not trying for points.  On the other hand, it is kind of fun to be a rebel without a cause.  I will try to be available to help when I can.

[ta0]

I have never felt less motivated to compete.

I am sorry to hear that your feel the same way I do.  After last year's nationals not only were scores not revealed, even the places were not revealed.  Did I come in 4th or last?  Repeated asking yielded nothing.  I have hardly thrown a top since. I'm getting riled up emotionally so I'll shut up now.

Last year at nats the tables were turned on me as I freestyled and ended up upset at the judges and their "secret" change of the written rules that we had used for two years. I only found out later on a casual conversation with Mark. However, on their defense, both Mark and Dick were asked on the spot to be judges and were not familiar with those rules. I think it might have made the difference between 4th and 3rd. I hadn't practiced and was not competing to win, but if I had I would have been really upset.
On the other hand, as a judge I am guilty of something comparable: at nats we let Jon pick up a top that went off stage, what was against the rules. We did it because of the public and because we did not think it would change the results. In addition, the "stage" that year was unusually small. But Boot, who had freestyled before him and did not retrieve his favorite top, got upset and he had the right to be.
Being a judge is kind of a no win situation, but somebody has to do it.

I always understood that freestyles are "free".  I did the same series of tricks for two years.  Nothing was said about them the first year but there certainly seemed to be a lot of comments about them the second year.  By the way, 99.9 percent of that discussion was in English. 

You showed me your freestyle a few months before worlds and asked for advice. I suggested some regen variations, but I also told you (actually, insisted) that you included a flashy and risky trick like pirouette. You were free not to follow that advice, but you knew my thinking.
All that 99% conversation in English was trying to sooth some hurt feelings from the misinterpretation of the 1% in Spanish.

next year in Marines , we'll do the national spintop contest with a new format:
freestyle+battle+target-throw taiwan style

That's similar to what they do in Colombia: Rayuela (battle) + Calle + Figuras (freestyle)
We'll you trust me to be a judge?

[Eli Hickerson]

This is what I'm thinking. It's not a drastic departure of what we have now, but I think it might help eliminate any "string hit count" bias that may currently exist.

a. No deductions for wraps or drops.

b. No counting any trick (regen or not) more than 3 times over the whole routine.

c. 80 points for technical.
Each completed trick is given between 1 and 6 points depending on difficulty (difficulty clicker).
In addition, 2, 4 or 6 bonus points are given for "anchor" tricks (big trick clicker, times 2). These will be reserved for special tricks that define the routine because they are special.
These are added and normalized at the end so the best technical performance, for each judge, gets a 80.

d. 20 points (maximum) for show performance. The cleaner, more fluid, more entertaining or spectacular the routine gets closer to 20 points. No wraps and no drops add to this. Overall trick originality and variety too.

Note that the tricks that get the 2, 4 or 6 big bonus points would rack lots of points as they would in most cases also get high difficulty points.

Those who want a mathematical formula or recipe to score the routines may be disappointed. There is still a lot of leeway for the judges to score them. But that's the nature of this sport.

PS: Yoyo Video Archive took the day off. 

I like this, I think that not counting tricks over 3 times will add variety to the freestyle and I like that if you want to go for high risk tricks you will be rewarded for them providing you can hit them.

[the Earl of Whirl]

"You showed me your freestyle a few months before worlds and asked for advice.  I suggested some regen variations, but I also told you (actually, insisted) that you included a flashy and risky trick like pirouette.  You were free not to follow that advice, but you knew my thinking."

---So, in your mind, I did do something wrong with my freestyle! 

"All that 99% conversation in English was trying to sooth some hurt feelings from the misinterpretation of the 1% in Spanish."

---My memory is that the 99 percent discussion was to talk about you feeling something was wrong with my freestyle.  I thought it was good to have discussion and present my point of view.  It feels a little weird to have you turn a discussion into "hurt feelings".  I hope we do not do this with other discussions about freestyle scoring.


   

[paxl13]

I was trying to stay silent but I'm going to say it anyway, I'm not sure I have what it takes to compete after reading all this and all the controversy there is about judging... It makes me feel uneasy about all of this... I am clearly not skilful enough anyway...

It does makes me sad tho to read that contest are driving away legend of spinnin' ... reading that Jack and Eli are no more interested isn't something fun...

[Austen]

With all this discussion this discussion of judging and competition, I feel it’s good to remind us all of the real reason we play with spintops. That reason, for me at least, is to have fun and hangout with my spintop family!........ I mean that and to see what Jim Neff will pull out of his bag next!

[Austen]

I have never felt less motivated to compete.

I am sorry to hear that your feel the same way I do.  After last year's nationals not only were scores not revealed, even the places were not revealed.  Did I come in 4th or last?  Repeated asking yielded nothing.  I have hardly thrown a top since. I'm getting riled up emotionally so I'll shut up now.

We missed y’all at worlds buddy! Looking forward to catching up at Miamisburg!

[Eli Hickerson]

I was trying to stay silent but I'm going to say it anyway, I'm not sure I have what it takes to compete after reading all this and all the controversy there is about judging... It makes me feel uneasy about all of this... I am clearly not skilful enough anyway...

It does makes me sad tho to read that contest are driving away legend of spinnin' ... reading that Jack and Eli are no more interested isn't something fun...

You should absolutely compete given the chance, it’s really really fun. I like competing, it’s what makes me want to get better. I can’t speak for jack but I am interested, If I wasn’t I wouldn’t be putting together a new 3 minutes for Miamisburg. Well somewhat new 

[Jack]

With all this discussion this discussion of judging and competition, I feel it’s good to remind us all of the real reason we play with spintops. That reason, for me at least, is to have fun and hangout with my spintop family!

couldn't have said it better myself

[Kirk]

the real reason we play with spintops. That reason, for me at least, is to have fun and hangout with my spintop family!

YES!

........ I mean that and to see what Jim Neff will pull out of his bag next!

AND YES!

[CUPER]

Hola antes que todo Saludos a todos
Yo en mi primer competencia termine dicidiendo estar en las competencia mundial cada año más como apoyo al grupo y mundo trompos y exelentes amigos
En lo personal me tocó vivir en sus inicios la revolución del trompo en México junto a Gustavo Castro mayor inventor de las técnicas de regeneración como tambien me tocó aprender la mayoría al 90% de ellas aun sigo en La idea que para un buen nivel de juego de trompo para mi es saber regenerar las mayores formas diferentes al menos yo e puesto en escenario mas de 8 formas distintas,
Personalmente entendi que asta día de hoy apoyaré al grupo mundo trompos para llegar en un futuro cercado a poder dividir las diferentes formas de competir desde trompo madera,punta fija,rodamiento,
En México una de los motivos que grupo de la empresa cometa ya no volvió fueron detalles mencionados por varios en este tema ,Y muy respetable su punto de vista yo en lo personal me inclino en apoyar el campeonato y pronto logremos llegar a lo que buscamos..saludos a todos atte,cuper

[CUPER]

Otro dato curioso que nos paso esta vez al equipo cuper no costo entender como cada actividad quien gana como ganamos etc solo nos intentábamos participar jajaja..no tenemos datos quien ganó mejor técnica. Etc etc pero exlente experiencia para todo mi grupo espero vernos pronto

[valerieyo]

Lots of good discussion here. I actually thought it was 3 repeats of the same trick not 5....so I stopped at 3! Ha. The discuusion reminds me of a Texas contest we ran at SixFlags(outside in the SUMMER! Which will never be done again I can assure you), but we did give extra points for runs over 1 minute with a single top and more for 2 minutes etc. Not sure why we never carried that forward to Nationals and Worlds. Of course you cant repeat more than 3 times and you cant stand there with a spinner in your hand for a minute.
I dont think judges can ever be able to do all of the tricks that they see, but when I judge I can see the difficulty and usually come close if not exactly to what the final places are.  At least with tops. Yoyos has go e beyond what I can score other than maybe a state or local contest.  Sharing scores shouldn't be a problem.  I do suggest (and have suggested at our Texas yoyo contest) for the judges to look at the scores of each other and share concerns of differences or reflect on improvements with each other. Judges can improve as well as contestants. Judges that consistently score out of a norm range are likely missing something and should be retrained or not used in future contests.
Good discussions. Keep it going!
Val