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Author Topic: Tip friction and air drag measurements  (Read 47092 times)

Iacopo

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2018, 02:37:00 PM »

TIP FRICTION VARIABILITY WITH LUBRICANT

These are the tip friction curves of the same top as above, but lubricant was used in the spinning surface, (oil).
The oil was abundant enough to be absolutely certain that there was always oil between the contact points during the spins. 

There is an evident reduction of the friction.  As in the spins without oil, there is tendency to a lower friction at lower speed. 



Below, all the already showed curves are chronologically numbered.
Green numbers are spins with oil, red numbers spins without oil.
The lowest friction is in the very first spins:  this is because the tip was more sharp at the beginning, so there was a littler contact point and a less favourable leverage in it for slowing down the top.
I never resharpened the tip during this test, and the wear of the contact points has been relatively intense, because of lack of oil in ten spins, and because all of the burden for slowing down the top was on tip friction alone, otherwise, in normal conditions, it is above all air drag that slows down the top.



« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 02:52:11 PM by Iacopo »
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2018, 03:44:28 PM »

These are the tip friction curves of the same top as above, but lubricant was used in the spinning surface, (oil).

Our knowledge of the "tip processes" actually affecting our tops has always been very limited. This data set gives us our best look yet at what actually goes on with a spike tip on a very hard surface with negligible sinkage. I'll be studying it carefully, but it's already clear that sliding friction isn't the only process involved.

Now for the bad news: Hate to be the wet blanket here, but viewing these last plots as frictional braking torque (FBT) curves without additional data is wishful thinking. All we know for sure -- even now -- is that they're total braking torque (TBT) curves measured at 13-67 Pa. We know from experimental vacuum physics that aerodynamic braking torques (ABTs) are measurable at much lower pressures than yours. (Hence the widespread use of the spinning rotor vacuum gauge in high vacuum systems.)

The simplest and IMO the most likely explanation for the consistent underlying decay of TBT with speed seen in all your data, with or without lube, is that the speed-dependent aerodynamic component of the TBT is still detectable at your pressures -- at least down to 400-500 RPM. Best then to sharpen our pencils and figure out how to extract the FBT info we really want given that likelihood.

That said, all the low-pressure TBT curves either start to flatten out or go crazy below ~400 RPM, some more than others. Perhaps at those low speeds, the FBT component is beginning to shine through.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 03:55:26 PM by Jeremy McCreary »
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Iacopo

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2018, 04:16:19 PM »

The simplest and IMO the most likely explanation of the consistent underlying decay of TBT with speed seen in all your data, with or without lube, is that the speed-dependent aerodynamic component of the TBT is still detectable at your pressures -- at least down to 400-500 RPM. Best then to sharpen our pencils and figure out how to extract the FBT info we really want given that likelihood.

You could be right, but the data I have at present make me believe that the decay of tip friction with speed is real.
In any case I will make a more accurate test for to know the relevance of the residual air drag.

As for the data I have at present, there should be no more than 0.01 millionths of Newtonmeter of air drag in this top when spinning at high speed in the vacuum.  This is practically nothing, compared to the extent of the decreasing friction in the curves.  Unless big errors in my data, the decreasing friction in the tip is real.

The curves going crazy at the end of the spin are related to the top starting to wobble, (unbalance).

 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 04:33:04 PM by Iacopo »
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Jeremy McCreary

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2018, 04:27:33 PM »

As for the data I have at present, there should be no more than 0.01 millionths of Newtonmeter of air drag in this top when spinning at high speed in the vacuum.

How do you know that?
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Iacopo

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2018, 04:52:01 PM »

How do you know that?

See "Test for to know residual air drag relevance in the vacuum chamber" at the beginning of the thread.
It seems that there is very approximately 1/331 residual air drag at 1.7 mm Hg and 1/552 residual air drag at 0.8 mm Hg. 
The normal TBT of this top at 900-1000 RPM is 7 millionths of Newtonmeter.
At 1.7 mm Hg its air drag should be less than very approximately 7 : 331 = 0.02 millionths of Newtonmeter.
At 0.8 mm Hg it should be less than very approximately 7 : 552 = 0.012 millionths of Newtonmeter.
And at lower pressures it should be lower still.

I know, this is approximate, I will make a more accurate test.


 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 05:17:44 PM by Iacopo »
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Beylon

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2018, 06:36:27 AM »

This is all pretty rad. Would it be possible to measure the temperature of the contact points? Surely such data would be a valuable test of the accuracy so far.

That said, I always just assumed that the temperature of the tip (as a measure of friction) decreases as the top slows down - and your amazing data so far does suggest this should be true. It is particularly noticeable on an anecdotal level when using tops with plastic or rubber tips. But that's not really science, I suppose.

But I also assumed the rate of cooling as the spin matures versus the overall deceleration was dependent on A) the actual weight of the top on the surface and B) the air pressure as a measure of cooling as the top slows down. Presumably in this case, the rate of cooling in a vacuum would be reduced due to the minute air pressure - so the tip would retain heat from the initial friction for longer... Which would initially appear to work against the results shown here, as the detrimental elasticity in the heated tip would presumably affect friction again. Makes me wonder if the results so far are actually conservative? Would be interesting to compare with results from inside the chamber at room pressure, as well as results from lighter-weight tops under identical conditions.

...Time for bed.
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Iacopo

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2018, 01:25:49 PM »

Would be interesting to compare with results from inside the chamber at room pressure, as well as results from lighter-weight tops under identical conditions.

By the time, (weeks, maybe months ?),  I will collect many more data in this thread, (with different tops, at room pressure, too).

But before to go on, I need to check the accuracy of the data.
I will post soon something about.

The tip is a very little thing..  I have no idea how I could measure these changes of temperature; then friction is extremely low, so the temperature increase too should be very low.  It seems a difficult task.
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Aerobie

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2018, 10:52:44 PM »

I've been assuming that aero drag is near zero at low RPM, such as 200 RPM.  Have you compared low speed drag, with and without, vacuum?  It won't be exact, due to lube variability, but perfect repeatability isn't needed.

Best,

Alan
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Iacopo

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 02:42:38 AM »

I've been assuming that aero drag is near zero at low RPM, such as 200 RPM.  Have you compared low speed drag, with and without, vacuum?  It won't be exact, due to lube variability, but perfect repeatability isn't needed.

In tops like the ones we make, at 200 RPM, air drag and tip friction should be approximately equivalent.
We will see this better in the next weeks.
I choosed to always use abundant oil in these tests, when I use oil the tip is sunk in it, so there is always oil between the contact points, at whatever speed. This eliminates the lube variability due to the oil becoming scarce between the contact points during the spin, when only a very thin layer of oil is used.
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Iacopo

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 03:53:28 PM »

DATA ACCURACY

This is a curve of tip friction you already saw, (or, to say better, a curve of the total braking torque in the vacuum chamber, but, as we are going to see, residual air drag in the vacuum is extremely low, so we can consider this actually as a curve of tip friction), more precisely the curve Nr. 15, (a spin with oil).
 
I wanted to add error bars to it, but these resulted too short...



... so I expanded the vertical axis by ten times, then I inserted the error bars, (below):

the horizontal black segments are the measured values of the total braking torque.
The red bars are errors of timing, (up to +/- 1 second error, which is possible because my tachometer makes one reading every about 0.6 - 1 seconds).
The blue bars represent the highest and most pessimistic values of the residual air drag in the vacuum chamber;
the values of the blue bars at 950-1000 and 1000-1050 RPM are calculated, the values of the other blue bars are only predicted approximately, (but certainly at lower speeds the air drag is lower).
They are only below the black segments because the black segments represent the total braking torque.
The real values of the tip friction are about at the center of the blue segments.



But the difference is really so negligible, (about 0.01 millionths of Newtonmeter at high speed), so I used the data of the total braking torque as they were the data of the tip friction in all the curves I exposed.
The vertical expansion can be misleading.  See below, how much difference there is between the Total braking torque curve, (green), and the tip friction curve, (purple); at the left the first one is above the other one by 0.01 millionths of Newtonmeter.



I have had a confirmation of this 0.01 millionths of Newtonmeter residual air drag in the vacuum chamber through a more refined version of the

Test for to know residual air drag relevance in the vacuum chamber

I added to my top Nr. 30 two pieces of scotch tape, like so;
(the pictured top is another one,  the picture is just to give an idea.  I used the Nr. 30, which is lighter, for to have less tip attrition and more stable friction).



The aim of the scotch tape is to dramatically increase the air drag on the top, without changing its weight/distribution of weight, (the two scotch tape pieces together weigh only 0.03 grams, the top weighs 119 grams).
The top, with or without the tape, would spin for practically the same time in a perfect vacuum.
In normal room pressure conditions instead, the top spins, (from 1050 to 1000 RPM), in 42 seconds without the tape, and in only 3 seconds with the tape.  A huge difference. 
This top is a useful and very sensitive instrument for to reveal residual air drag in the vacuum chamber.

I spinned this top at different air pressures in the vacuum chamber, with and without the tape, and timed the lapses  1050-1000 RPM, and 1000-950 RPM.  The value of 767 mm Hg represents the normal room pressure.



RPM lapse     mm Hg              Time                     Time
                                         with tape             without tape

1050-1000        767             00:03.0                 00:41.7
 950-1000         767             00:03.2                 00:44.9

1050-1000        2.2              03:49                    04:56         
1050-1000        0.5              04:40                    05:16
1050-1000        0.2              04:30                    05:33
1050-1000        0.2              04:35                    05:21
1050-1000        0.1              04:46                    05:27
 950-1000         2.2              04:02                    04:46
 950-1000         0.5              04:29                    05:30
 950-1000         0.4              04:53                    04:55
 950-1000         0.2              04:43                    05:15
 950-1000         0.2              04:48                    05:35
 950-1000         0.1              05:02                    05:40


I translated these spin times into values of total braking torque, (the rotational inertia of this top is kg-m2 0.0000705), then I calculated the difference of torque due to the scotch tape:



RPM lapse     mm Hg       Total braking torque, millionths of Newtonmeter
                                        With tape          Without tape        Difference

1050-1000        767               123                    8.86                  114.1                   
 950-1000         767               115                    8.23                  106.8                         

1050-1000        2.2                1.61                   1.25                   0.36                   
1050-1000        0.5                1.32                   1.17                   0.15 (?)
1050-1000        0.2                1.37                   1.11                   0.26
1050-1000        0.2                1.34                   1.15                   0.19
1050-1000        0.1                1.29                   1.13                   0.16           
 950-1000         2.2                1.52                   1.29                   0.23
 950-1000         0.5                1.37                   1.12                   0.25
 950-1000         0.4                1.26                   1.25                   0.01 (?)
 950-1000         0.2                1.31                   1.17                   0.14
 950-1000         0.2                1.28                   1.10                   0.18
 950-1000         0.1                1.22                   1.09                   0.13


"Difference" is practically the air drag of the scotch tape alone.
The same scotch tape, which has 107-114 millionths of Newtonmeter air drag at room pressure at the tested speeds, has 0.13-0.26 millionths of  Newtonmeter air drag in the vacuum at the lowest pressures I can use, at the same speeds.

The highest measured residual air drag at 0.1-0.5 mm Hg is

0.26 : 114.1 =  1/439

of the air drag at normal air pressure.

Using the other numbers, other ratios are found that range from 1/439 to 1/ 822 in the 0.1-0.5 mm Hg range.
I overlooked the two (?) values, too little plausible.
(also I expected littler differences at 0.1 and 0.2 mm Hg).

Wanting to be conservative, I used the ratio found at 2.2 mm Hg, (1/317), for to calculate the length of the blue error bars;

The top Nr. 27b, which I used for the tip friction measurements in this thread, has about 5,3 millionths of  Newtonmeter air drag at normal room pressure, at 900-1000 RPM;
In the vacuum chamber, (0.1-0.5 mm Hg), it can be expected to have less than

5.3 : 317 = 0.017 millionths of Newtonmeter air drag.

______________________________________________________

Conclusions:
Residual air drag in the vacuum chamber at the used pressures for the tip friction measurements, (0.1-0.5 mm Hg), is extremely low, and, for our aims, can be neglected.
The total braking torque curves practically coincide with the tip friction curves, and can be treated as such.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 05:25:06 PM by Iacopo »
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ta0

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2018, 09:18:36 PM »

You are really methodical! Your conclusions are very convincing. Great work! Thanks for doing it and sharing it with us.
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Iacopo

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2018, 01:41:47 PM »

TIP FRICTION AND UNBALANCE
The effect of unbalance on tip friction.

For this experiment I used this top:





The top is perfectly balanced.  I spinned it in the vacuum for to know its tip friction:




Differently from my other top, (27b), which, as we have seen, had irregular variability of tip friction, this one instead, (26b), has a tip friction which decreases quite more homogeneously with speed, (I have to think about it);
these are the raw data of the spin, with oil.  Perfect balance and sharp tip.



RPM lapse          TIME           TIP FRICTION
                                      millionths of newtonmeter

1250-1225       02:11.4                 1.27
1225-1200       02:14.5                 1.24
1200-1175       02:15.6                 1.23
1175-1150       02:25.2                 1.15
1150-1125       02:26.4                 1.14
1125-1100       02:27.4                 1.13
1100-1075       02:28.2                 1.13
1075-1050       02:29.2                 1.12
1050-1025       02:27.4                 1.13
1025-1000       02:26.0                 1.14
1000-975         02:31.4                 1.10
  975-950         02:30.3                 1.11
  950-925         02.30.8                 1.11
  925-900         02.34.1                 1.08
  900-875         02:37.3                 1.06
  875-850         02:37.4                 1.06
  850-825         02:36.5                 1.07
  825-800         02:40.7                 1.04
  800-775         02:43.2                 1.02
  775-750         02:44.4                 1.01
  750-725         02:48.6                 0.99
  725-700         02:50.4                 0.98
  700-675         02:53.8                 0.96
  675-650         02:57.1                 0.94
  650-625         02:59.7                 0.93
  625-600         03:03.1                 0.91
  600-575         03:06.6                 0.89
  575-550         03:09.9                 0.88
  550-525         03:13.1                 0.86
  525-500         03:16.0                 0.85
  500-475         03:19.6                 0.84
  475-375         14:05.5*               0.79
  375-350         03:42.8                 0.75
  350-300         07:40.2**             0.72
  300-275         03:56.3                 0.71
  275-250         04:01.6                 0.69
  250-225         04:05.8                 0.68
  225-200         04:09.3                 0.67
  200-175         04:07.7                 0.67

* 100 RPM lapse instead of 25
** 50 RPM lapse instead of 25





I purposely unbalanced this top, adding a bit of modelling clay to it, as showed in the picture below, then I spun the unbalanced top in the vacuum, to see whether there were changes in the tip friction.
I tried adding different amounts of modelling clay, from 0.13 to 0.30 grams.




The top weighs 103.8 grams and the added mass was at 31 mm from the axis of the top, so, adding the modelling clay, distances the center of mass of the top from its geometrical axis by:

31 : (103.8 : 0.13) = 0.04 mm, (adding 0.13 grams to the flywheel).
31 : (103.8 : 0.30) = 0.09 mm, (adding 0.30 grams to the flywheel).

Even with the largest added mass, (0.30 grams), the center of mass of the top remains at less than one tenth millimeter from the axis of the top.  It seems a very little distance.
Even with the largest added mass, the top spins smoothly and apparently balanced, at high speed. No apparent problems. There is just a bit of wobbling at 400 RPM, which worsens at lower speeds.
 
Anyway the effect of this unbalance on tip friction turned out to be relevant.


Spin times of the unbalanced top in the vacuum:


RPM lapse          TIME             
                         Balanced      +0.13 grams     +0.19 grams     +0.25 grams     +0.30 grams                             

1250-1200          04:25.9           02:18.4             01:40.2                  -                 00:44.7
1200-1150          04:40.8           02:12.5             01:49.9                  -                 00:45.6
1150-1100          04:53.8                -                  01:53.0             00:46.0            00:46.3
1100-1050          04:57.4                -                  01:54.1             00:49.5            00:47.0
1050-1000          04:53.4           02:16.1                  -                  00:53.5            00:46.6
1000-950            05:01.7               -                        -                  01:02.8                 -


The same data translated in terms of tip friction:


RPM lapse          TIP FRICTION, (millionths of newtonmeter)           
                         Balanced      +0.13 grams     +0.19 grams     +0.25 grams     +0.30 grams                             

1250-1200            1.27                2.41                 3.33                     -                  7.46
1200-1150            1.24                2.52                 3.04                     -                  7.32
1150-1100            1.23                  -                    2.95                   7.25               7.21
1100-1050            1.15                  -                    2.92                   6.74               7.10
1050-1000            1.14                2.45                    -                     6.24               7.16
1000-950              1.13                  -                       -                     5.31                  -


Even a slight unbalance causes a severe increase of the tip friction, at high speed.
At slow speed instead the tip friction worsening is little:




I understood the reason of so high tip frictions when I looked at the spinning surface with the microscope, after the test.
There were circular grooves like this, (this was the larger one):




It tells how the top was spinning on it.
The unbalanced top wants to spin about its center of mass, at the same time centrifugal force acting on the flattened flywheel wants to keep the geometrical axis of the top parallel to the rotation axis; 
the result is that, at high speed, when these forces are stronger, the tip is constrained to rub on the spinning surface, along a microscopical circular trajectory.  In the picture above, the groove was left by the tip circling at 0.02 mm from the rotation axis of the top.  Obviously there is much tip friction in such a situation.
Presumably at lower speeds the circling of the tip slows down and ceases, the tip settles in one point of the groove and spins there, so the tip friction decreases substantially.

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Conclusion: 
Even a little amount of unbalance increases significantly the tip friction at high speed.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 04:30:32 AM by Iacopo »
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ta0

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2018, 05:37:35 PM »

More excellent data!

It makes sense that an unbalance would make the tip describe a circle and this would increase the friction. It's a little surprising such a high factor (7X at high speed), but proves how important is balance for a high duration top.

I wonder if a dry tip would also see the same decrease in friction with lower speed or if we you are seeing the effect of the oil.  :-\
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Aerobie

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2018, 01:54:10 AM »

I have noted strong increases in decay rate when RPM is low and the top wobbles.  This is related to your unbalance observations.

I also note that the speed of minimum decay is well above the lowest wobble-free speed.  Perhaps there is some wobble that's too small to see at speeds below the speed of minimum decay.  But I think it's likely that the lube is shear sensitive and is more slippery at speed of minimum decay than the lowest wobble-free speed.

Perhaps even there is some local heating at the tip.

Alan
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Iacopo

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Re: Tip friction and air drag measurements
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2018, 04:19:54 AM »

It makes sense that an unbalance would make the tip describe a circle and this would increase the friction. It's a little surprising such a high factor (7X at high speed), but proves how important is balance for a high duration top.

In the wobbling due to unbalance, wobbling speed and spin speed are equal.  When the unbalanced top spins at 20 revolutions per second, the tip should slip rubbing on the spinning surface, tracing a microscopical circular trajectory, at 20 rounds per second.  It seems to make sense that spinning in this way there is quite more friction than when the top spins with the tip centered, without slipping/rubbing on the spinning surface. 
A clue of high friction is given by the picture at the microscope showed above; that circular groove was the result of just a single spin.  The amount of removed metal, (which seems high, compared to concavities digged by balanced tops), suggests a relatively high attrition.

I wonder if a dry tip would also see the same decrease in friction with lower speed or if we you are seeing the effect of the oil.  :-\

I will try to spin it without oil.
The first tested top seemed to show decrease in friction both with and without oil.
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