iTopSpin

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Author Topic: Balancing a finger top (twirler)  (Read 21123 times)

Jeremy McCreary

  • ITSA
  • Demigod member
  • **********
  • Posts: 3784
    • MOCpages
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2016, 02:28:12 AM »

I finally decided to move the ball according to the gap position when the magnitude of the wobble was greatest.  Following that strategy allowed me to improve the balance, but the best I could achieve is only fair.

Still trying to understand how the laser method works in detail, but the changes in wobbling amplitude and phase angle with speed that you describe are strongly suggestive of whirl. If the wobbling is indeed whirl, then the paint marks (laser gap??) should lag the heavy side of the top by ~90° at maximum amplitude, which would mark a critical speed in the vibrational sense.
 
PS  I've just ordered a stroboscope to allow visual "freezing" of the spin, without the bother of making a movie.  Stroboscopes ranged in price from about $50 to $1,000.  I ordered one for $100 that looks like it will do the job.

I'm also in the market for a reasonably priced strobe. Which one did you order, and from what supplier?
Logged
Art is how we decorate space, music is how we decorate time ... and with spinning tops, we decorate both.
—after Jean-Michel Basquiat, 1960-1988

Everything in the world is strange and marvelous to well-open eyes.
—Jose Ortega y Gasset, 1883-1955

Aerobie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 267
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2016, 12:41:48 PM »

I ordered this stroboscope:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B013TIETEC/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Compared to the others I browsed, I liked knobs to adjust rate (rather than buttons), I liked battery operation, and of course the price was lower than most.

Let's hope that I'll like it when I get to try it.

Alan
Logged

ta0

  • Administrator
  • Olympus member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14320
    • www.ta0.com
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2016, 12:57:30 PM »

Looks like a nice strobe.

The only strobe I have is the one that came with the Strobotop:



I reviewed the strobe here: Re: New Strobotop
Logged

Iacopo

  • Immortal Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 1722
    • Spin tops by Iacopo Simonelli, YouTube channel
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2016, 03:59:24 PM »

Iacopo, have you ever noticed clockwise progression the apparent lightweight side, as speed decayed?

Alan,

I noticed the same effect, but your top seems much more sensible to speed than the mine. 
You see up to 180 degrees shift, as speed decays, while I see no more than 40-45 degrees shift in my top, (as speed decays, from 900 to 400 RPM in my case).

As for direction of the shift:  if I start my top at 900 RPM, setted with height of center of mass at mm 16, in clockwise direction;   at the beginning of the spin, the marks of the brush appear near the heavy side, at about 45 degrees from it:
If I look at the top from above, with its heavy side towards me, (position 6:00 o'clock), the marks appear at my right side, (position 4:30).

After speed has decayed from 900 to 400 RPMs, the marks appear at my right side at 3:00 o'clock.

So it seems that in my case the shift is in counterclockwise direction, and that the top at higher speed tends to lean towards the heavy side,and at slower speed towards the light side, (which I find a bit counterintuitive).


« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 04:07:09 PM by Iacopo »
Logged

Aerobie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 267
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2016, 05:15:56 PM »

Iacopo, 

We are both observing the same direction.  I confused things by describing the apparent heavy side as gradually moving clockwise.  But that was as viewed from the bottom of the top. 

Pardon the confusion.  I think that way because the laser method causes a reversal due to the reflection and my adjustment screws are also on the bottom of the top.

Your speed is much higher than mine.  Even when working with a poorly balanced top, the circle pattern of reflection is too small to see above 300 RPM.  And when I progress towards good balance, I can't see a circle above about 200 RPM.  I do see a large and slow circle due to precession, but that can be present with a well balanced top.  The small rapid circle due to wobble is the indication of imbalance.

Regards,

Alan

Incidentally, I expect the stroboscope could replace both the paintbrush and the laser.
Logged

Iacopo

  • Immortal Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 1722
    • Spin tops by Iacopo Simonelli, YouTube channel
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2016, 12:42:48 PM »

Alan,

You have had a very good idea with the stroboscope, I think it will work.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 03:20:25 AM by Iacopo »
Logged

Iacopo

  • Immortal Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 1722
    • Spin tops by Iacopo Simonelli, YouTube channel
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #66 on: October 06, 2016, 03:35:41 AM »

About the cusps I think to something else, I will post some pictures and explain what I think.
Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that the cusps cannot explain the 90 degrees marks. The cusps will only point to 0 or 180 degrees.

I have just finished to make a video about the possible trajectories of the axis of rotation in spinning tops. It took me more time than I thought at first, but this is a complex issue. I have to check it if everything is ok, I will post it very soon. 
Logged

Aerobie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 267
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2016, 04:16:55 PM »

Gyroscopic Precession and Top Balancing:

It is well established that gyroscopic precession causes a spinning object to tilt 90 degrees of rotation later than an applied tilting torque.

Yet I posted a video a few weeks ago which showed a top leaning in the same direction as the penny that I taped to it.  But this happened when the top was rotating very slowly.  Perhaps the spin rate was too slow for gyroscopic precession and we observed simple static imbalance.

This effect might explain Iacopo's observation of a 90 degree change of lean as speed diminished.  But it still doesn't explain the 180 degree change that I have observed.

Alan

Logged

Iacopo

  • Immortal Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 1722
    • Spin tops by Iacopo Simonelli, YouTube channel
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #68 on: October 08, 2016, 01:48:40 PM »

Gyroscopic Precession and Top Balancing:

Yet I posted a video a few weeks ago which showed a top leaning in the same direction as the penny that I taped to it.  But this happened when the top was rotating very slowly.  Perhaps the spin rate was too slow for gyroscopic precession and we observed simple static imbalance.

This effect might explain Iacopo's observation of a 90 degree change of lean as speed diminished.  But it still doesn't explain the 180 degree change that I have observed.

EDIT: I HAVE PARTLY REWRITTEN THIS AND ADDED A PICTURE BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN TOO POORLY THE FIRST TIME.

The more I think to this, the more I am convinced that imbalance and precession are two totally separated dynamics.
I am convinced that there is no precession at all in imbalance.

There could be also precession, superimposed to imbalance, but not necessarily, (you can understand better what I mean if you see my latest video "The movements of spinning tops").

With imbalance the top spins staying leaned always towards the same side of itself,at whatever speed.
This kills the gyroscopic effect.

If we consider the top in the drawing, in that position, without spinning, it would topple down of course.
For toppling down, half flywheel sinks down, and the other half raises up, pivoting on the tip.

If the top is spinning, the mass points in position A have no time enough to touch the ground, because before this happens they have reached position C, where these mass points, that had started to fall, are now accelerated in the opposite direction, upwards.

The rapid alternate accelerations in two opposite directions of the mass points of the flywheel, (upwards and downwards), is one reason for the top not toppling down, and the premise for the gyro effect to take place.

Precession could be explained now, but it is not important here.

The important concept here is that, as a basic rule, the gyro effect, to take place, needs the mass points of the flywheel to be alternately accelerated up and down.

They are these alternated accelerations that trigger the gyro effect.

In case of imbalance, the top stays leaned always towards the same side of itself, at whatever speed;
so the mass points of the flywheel of one side of the top are subjected to a permanent force in downwards direction, while the other side is subjected to a permanent force in upwards direction.

In this conditions the gyro effect can't take place.

So, I think that the mysterious shift to 90 degrees, (but not only 90 degrees, all the angles from 0 to 180 degrees), cannot be due to precession.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 03:27:57 PM by Iacopo »
Logged

Iacopo

  • Immortal Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 1722
    • Spin tops by Iacopo Simonelli, YouTube channel
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2016, 04:22:46 PM »

I add this thought:

If not precession, then, what is the force that prevents an unbalanced top to rapidly topple down ?

My guess is centrifugal force.

In figure 1 there is an unbalanced top which spins, along axis of rotation x, staying always leaned towards its heavy side:
the heavy side would rapidly sink until touching the ground because force of gravity (the blue arrow), but this doesn't happen.
There is no precession in this situation so the reason is something else:
I think it is centrifugal force, that, acting at two different levels at the two opposite sides of the flywheel, produces a righting torque on the top.  This prevents the top to topple down soon.

By the time the rotational speed of the top slows down, and so centrifugal force becomes weaker:
the top leans a bit more and finds a new equilibrium, because in more leaned position of the top, the centrifugal force can work with a more effective leverage, (figure 2).

So, gradually, the top slows down, and at the same time becomes more and more leaned, until toppling down.

This is how I see unbalance, it is a dynamics totally independent of precession and also of nutation, (I believe), based on an aequilibrium between force of gravity and centrifugal force.

The axis of rotation X is in vertical position; if this axis exits from the vertical position, this triggers precession, with the axis X tracing a cone trajectory, but this doesn't necessarily happen, and a top can topple down without precessing.
 


This is the case for an unbalanced oblate top, which stays leaned towards its heavy side.
The prolate top, which stays leaned towards its light side, I have an idea but I have to think more about it.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 04:35:55 PM by Iacopo »
Logged

Aerobie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 267
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2016, 05:05:18 PM »

I have observed that, the better the balance - the shorter the wobble time.  And after I balanced some of my wobblers, there was no, or nearly no, wobble time.  They sleep straight up until their minimum RPM, then suddenly topple with no wobble time.

Alan
Logged

Iacopo

  • Immortal Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 1722
    • Spin tops by Iacopo Simonelli, YouTube channel
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2016, 08:34:19 AM »

I have observed that, the better the balance - the shorter the wobble time.  And after I balanced some of my wobblers, there was no, or nearly no, wobble time.  They sleep straight up until their minimum RPM, then suddenly topple with no wobble time.

Alan

Yes, I too see this.
If my interpretation is correct, centrifugal force is what pulls the flywheel to stay orthogonal to the axis of rotation.
But this force becomes weaker and weaker while the top slows down; in the end, the centrifugal force will be so weak that also the tiniest imbalance of a well balanced top will prevail over it, maybe only just at the last second of spinning.

On the other hand, when spinning rapidly, the centrifugal force could be strong enough to constrain in vertical position also a top that is not very well balanced.

This righting effect of the centrifugal force works only with imbalance.

In case of precession instead, (a well balanced top which is precessing), centrifugal force has no righting effect anymore, because the top is already spinning with the flywheel orthogonal to the axis of rotation.  In this case it is the gyroscopic effect that prevents the top from toppling down. 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2016, 08:46:26 AM by Iacopo »
Logged

Jeremy McCreary

  • ITSA
  • Demigod member
  • **********
  • Posts: 3784
    • MOCpages
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2016, 11:04:20 AM »

How I do Laser Balancing:

This method is my adaptation of the Quark instructions:

Make a shiny flat disc, 360 degrees of the upper surface of the top.  It needn't be a mirror, any shiny surface works. I've used the shiny surface of clear polycarbonate. I've also just polished the upper surface of my top. There are many shiny tapes available, which could be attached to the upper surface of your top. You could also attach a thin disc of shiny plastic. Attachments should be lightweight, to have minimal influence on balance.

Block the reflectivity of a radial stripe running from the center outward on your shiny disc. I've used a narrow strip of matte finish "Magic Mending Tape". It's clear, but not shiny. I chose it because it's thin and lightweight. I've also used my radial stripe of Scotchlite, which is always there for the optical tachometer. You can see that on the tops in all of my photos. You could also sand a radial stripe on your shiny disc with sandpaper to kill the shine.

Shine a laser downward at the spinning top, striking it at 3:00 o'clock.

View the reflected laser on the ceiling. The top must be spinning slow enough to wobble. The pattern on the ceiling will be a circle with a break caused by the non-shiny strip.  Imagine that you are looking at an ordinary clock on the ceiling. The part of the circle nearest you is 12 o'clock. Note the o'clock position of the gap.

Hold the top viewing its bottom, with the non-shiny strip at your left, which is 9 o'clock. The azimuth of the gap you saw on the ceiling needs more weight. If you are moving the pivot, it should be moved away from the azimuth where you noted the reflected gap.

Thanks for posting your "laser method" for locating unbalances, Alan. Now that I have a laser pointer bright enough to test it on LEGO tops with known unbalances, I have 2 main findings to report:

(A) Your non-reflective strip trick works like a charm. The reflection gap projected onto the ceiling is clearly seen, and its azimuth is easy to determine to at least the nearest "hour" (i.e., to the nearest 30°).

(B) With the LEGO tops tested so far, the reflection gaps always point to the heavy side, regardless of speed, CM height, or degree of unbalance. This contrasts with your finding of reflection gaps pointing to the light side at relatively low speeds.

The discrepancy in (B) doesn't invalidate the laser method by any means, but it does underscore the need to pin down the phase angle (180°, 0°, 90°) in effect under the test parameters involved before correcting the top in a permanent way. We've already seen this problem with the paintbrush method. Reports to date indicate that paint piles up 180° from the heavy side in most cases. However, we've also seen phase angles of 0° and 90° now and then, and phase angles that change with CM height or speed have also been reported.

Hence, both methods leave us with a practical dilemma: In a top with unknown unbalance, which phase angle applies? Unfortunately, there's no way to predict given our limited understanding of how tops respond to unbalance. Safest, then, to test hypothetical phase angles in 180° -> 0° -> 90° order to see which one applies before committing to an irreversible balance correction.

I'm guessing that Finding (B) above reflects a difference in phase angle -- 180° in my case and 0° in yours.

Methodology
The photo below shows a typical LEGO test top with a dozen black 0.24 g "test masses" and my new green laser sight. The perfectly balanced "bare top" without test masses weighs 28.1 g. The 2 white wheels making up the "rotor" can host up to 12 test masses in the holes just inboard of their rims.





Release speeds range up to ~6,400 RPM by motorized spinner (below) and ~1,500 RPM by hand. With the rotor at its lowest position -- i.e., with the top at minimum center of mass (CM) height -- spin times are ~55 and ~35 sec, respectively. Aerodynamic drag around the spokes accounts for the modest spin times and the meager bump in spin time (57%) from a 427% bump in release speed. (Covering the spokes with smooth fairings more than doubles spin times but blocks access to the test mass holes.) Topple speed at minimum CM height averages ~480 RPM without test masses and higher with.



Sliding the rotor along the top's central black axle varies overall CM height from ~24 to ~72 mm. This adjustment has no effect on the test top's AMI (axial moment of inertia), but increasing CM height increases its TMI (transverse moment of inertia about the tip) and decreases its AMI/TMI ratio. The net result is a strong adverse effect on spin time via the minimum speed for stable sleeping or steady precession. Nonetheless, the bare test top sleeps well at all CM heights.

To unbalance the test top, I just add test masses in pairs (0.48 g increments) above and below the rotor so as maintain static unbalance and avoid couple and dynamic unbalance. All test masses sit 32 mm from the spin axis. The 6-fold symmetry allows total static unbalances of 7.7, 13.3, and 21.0 g mm. The photo below shows the test top in a state of maximum unbalance with 3 pairs of test masses onboard. Note the wedge of dull black friction tape on the otherwise shiny black disk serving as laser reflector.




Test tops deliberately unbalanced in this manner "wobble" at all tested speeds, CM heights, and total unbalances -- usually with minor precession. The wobbling is clearly modulated by gyroscopic effects, but I still think that it represents a form of rigid body whirl rather than gyroscopic nutation.

Prior to testing the laser method, I checked the unbalanced test top for phase angle relative to the known unbalance vector using an adaptation of the paintbrush method (post coming soon). The result was a constant 180° phase angle at all speeds, CM heights, and total unbalances. No surprise then that results with the laser method were also identical under these conditions.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2016, 11:26:19 AM by Jeremy McCreary »
Logged

Iacopo

  • Immortal Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 1722
    • Spin tops by Iacopo Simonelli, YouTube channel
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2016, 01:35:24 PM »

with the LEGO tops tested so far, the reflection gaps always point to the heavy side, regardless of speed, CM height, or degree of unbalance.
Topple speed at minimum CM height averages ~480 RPM without test masses and higher with.

Nice experiment, Jeremy.

From your pictures, your top wouldn't seem to me one with a so low CG to stay leaned always towards the heavy side.
I suspect that the tip of your top was slipping on the spinning surface, because of high speed and slippery surface, (if you used the glass pane in the picture);
if the tip slips on the base, the direction of leaning becomes unreliable. 
Logged

Aerobie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 267
Re: Balancing a finger top (twirler)
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2016, 06:20:55 PM »

Good work Jeremy.  I just want to verify, that when you held the top, viewing the bottom with the dull stripe at 9 o'clock, the azimuth of the gap on the ceiling indicated the heavy side, which is opposite of my experiments.

Were any of your observed gap azimuths either near the top (~12 o'clock, and nearest you), or near the bottom (~6 o'clock and farthest from you)?   This as opposed to being only on the right or left sides).

Incidentally, recall that I posted a slow motion video of a top with a penny taped to it.  At low speed the video showed that the azimuth of the penny was lowest and that azimuth scraped first, just as we would intuit.  I have since removed that video from dropbox to make room for other items.  If you need to see it again, I can re-post it.

Since then, I've had another top which behaved the same way.  I balanced it by first taping a small square of copper foil to the opposite side.  Then experimentally adjusted the size of that piece of copper to achieve balance.  Next, I calculated the volume of the copper piece and milled a shallow hole of equal volume on the heavy side (0.25" dia and .008" deep).  Balance was achieved.  The volume of the material removed calculated to a weight of .058 grams.

Alan
Logged
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 »   Go Up